Shalom, R. Mordechai. I noticed that at the end of Ezra and of Nechemiah both seforim discuss the Jews who had taken non-Jewish wives. They don't specify whether the events in both seforim are the same events, when Ezra and Nechemiah dealt with this issue. Also, is there any reason why they would not have allowed the non-Jewish wives to convert to Judaism rather than be sent away??
I can't help but wonder how such leading Jews would have gone ahead to take non-Jewish "wives" (which I assume means no sort of actual marriage), when they were people who had come to Eretz Yisroel from Bavel with mesirus nefesh at the behest of the neviim without first converting the wives at least.
Finally, you will notice that Nechemiah there mentions the sin of Shlomo Hamelech in comparing them to Shlomo, yet Shlomo HAD first converted his wives, including bas Paroh, so why is there this comparison with men who apparently did not even bother to have their foreign wives converted (and which Ezra and Nechemiah did not even allow)?
Thanks,
David Goldman
I would say that both Ezra and Nechemyah are referring to the same event, especially as the Pasuk does not inform us that Nechemyah succeeded in getting them to separate from their wives, as it does by Ezra. Remember also, that in reality, most of Seifer Ezra was said by Nechemyah, only he was punished for asking Hash-m to remember him for the good, and the first half of his Seifer was named after Ezra (Sanhedrin 93b).
Regarding your next point, it is possible that already at that time, due to the laxness in this area, they forbade women who converted specifically in order to marry. And besides, it might not have been a matter of converting, because who says that the women were willing to convert? And besides, some of the women mentioned by Nechemyah were forbidden to marry into K'lal Yisrael, even after converting.
There was of course no marriage, since Kidushin does take effect when either partner is a Nochri.
Regarding your surprise at the people returning to Eretz Yisrael with Mesirus Nefesh at the behest of the Nevi'im without having first divorced their wives, who says that they arrived in Eretz Yisrael with their non-Jewish wives? Perhaps they married them after arriving in Eretz Yisrael? (Though your question is not answered with that; it merely takes on a different form)?
Mesiras Nefesh in one area of Halachah does not necessarily indicate Mesiras Nefesh in all areas. When one is 'married' with a family, it is not easy to divorce one's wife just like that (as even Yirmiyah ha'Navi testified). Clearly, this was a weakness (not the only one) in their fulfillment of Torah and Mitzvos, which does not appear to have been on the highest level).
The Malbim at the end of Ezra points out that since the families that are listed as having intermarried are very few, it is clear that it was only a small minority who were involved (mainly the aristocracy, which is not uncommon for sins of this nature). Only, he explains the sin was treated as a communal one, a. because it was done in public and b. because the people (and in particular the leaders) did not try to stop it, in which case, based on the principle 'Kol Yisrael Areivim Zeh ba'Zeh', they were all guilty.
And finally, what you ask from Shlomoh Hamelech, quite to the contrary, Nechemyah only mentions Shlomoh to demonstrate what 'falling in love' with non-Jewish women leads to (as they caused him to go astray). And if, as you point out, this is what happens, despite the fact that he converted them, then how much greater is the danger if one does not.
R. Eliezer Chrysler
We have the halacha going back to Dovid Hamelech, "Moavis ve-lo Moavi". So if these women were Moabites and Ammonites, wouldn't the halacha allow them to convert like Ruth??
In any case, lechoyre these Jews would not have stam decided to live with goyishe women, they must have thought there was some kind of heter involved (i..e. conversion not leshem shomayim, though the Rambam seems to say that this is still a good conversion bideved).......
As far as Shlomo is concerned, wasn't his problem that the wives continued some kind of avodah zarah, not that he had converted them first, since for sure he performed perfectly kosher conversions.....??
Sorry, the Halachah "Mo'avi", 've'Lo Mo'avis', is a hard and fast rule.
I still abide by the other points I made though. The Rambam that you quoted would only say that Bedi'eved the Geirus is valid, if the Ger accepted all the Mitzvos, and it is more than likely that the women concerned were not interested in doing so, or the Beis-Din disallowed it in this case because of the Chilul Hash-m involved (since it was a communal sin, as I explained), or so as to discourage them from making a habit of doing it.
Re. Shlomoh Hamelech, whether or not he converted his wives is irrelevant. The point Nechemyah was making that for all his greatness, see the result of his having married such women (the day he married the daughter of Paroh, says the Medrash, Rome came into being). He was pleading with the people to take a lesson from Shlomoh and relinquish their non-Jewish wives.
Exactly what they thought it's hard to tell, but what is sure is that once one allows oneself to get involved with forbidden women, it's extremely difficult to extricate oneself. And bear in mind Rav Huna's Heter - that once a person sins and repeats the sin, he thinks that it has become permitted.
R. Eliezer Chrysler
Yes, I was thinking of the rule the other way around. But IF those women were Amonites and Moabites AND they did convert, then presumably they would not have been rejected, even bideved.......??
The Kollel replies
One of my points was (and still is) that in all likelihood, the Chachamim would have rejected these women, even if they had chosen to convert (though it is of course, only conjecture, and I have no way of proving it.