More Discussions for this daf
1. Suicidal prayer 2. Choni the "Me'agel" 3. Choni ha'Me'agel
4. Shimon Ben Shetach and Choni ha'Ma'agal 5. How does the Gemara know the story if it was kept secret 6. Choni Ha'Ma'agal
7. בימי שמעון בן שטח ירדו גשמים 8. אישתטח על קברא דאבוה
DAF DISCUSSIONS - TA'ANIS 23

Yair Trebitsch asks:

Hope all is well with the Kollel and thank you for the excellent work!

I have a few questions regarding the story that the gemorah brings down about Choni Hamagoel.

1. Why did Choni Hamagoel tell the people to fast first then he could have made a circle.

2. Why was it necessary to make a circle why not go to the shul and daven alone.

3. How did he know to make a circle and why a circle not a box or a square or some other shape.

4. Why did Hash-m cause heavy rain then light rain why not let it rain perfect the first time.

5. The mishna uses the word UGA but we call Choni Hamageol why the different word ( i dont think they have the same shoresh)

Thank You again,

Yair Trebitsch

The Kollel replies:

1-3. The Ben Yehoyada explains that the people knew Choni was so beloved by Hash-m and that he would certainly be answered. The reason his original Tefilah was (surprisingly) not answered is because he was not thinking of the people as much as he was thinking lofty spiritual thoughts. This is why he made a circle, to remind him of the earth, meaning the suffering of the people on earth, and to Daven from their perspective (rather than losing himself within his close relationship with Hash-m).

4. A simple answer to this question would be that Hash-m wanted to show that it is not 100% appropriate even for Choni ha'Me'agel to talk this way to Hash-m, and to show that things do not always work out exactly as Tzadikim demand.

This is indicated by Shimon ben Shetach's statement that if it he not been Choni, Shimon ben Shetach would put him in Niduy. We indeed find in Megilah (22b) that such behavior contributed to Levi (a great early Amora) becoming a cripple. Accordingly, it is possible Hash-m wanted to show that this method does not always bring the desired result. (See also Ben Yehoyada, who alludes to another explanation for this as well.)

5. The word "Ugah" is either slang for a circle (see Rashi in Moed Katan 4b) or means an enclosure, which was often a circle. Hence it is a borrowed term for a circle (see Tosfos Yom Tov to Moed Katan 1:1 at length).

All the best,

Yaakov Montrose