Hello. I am at a loss to understand Rashi about the issur of bathing with one's father, father-in-law and brother. If it has to do with "from there I came out," or from there "my wife came out," couldn't that same principle be applied throughout? What is particularly negative there? One's uncle is permitted, one's grandfather is permitted, one's wife's grandfather is permitted?? The same "impure thought" would apply to everybody. And what would make that so "impure" about such a thought anyway? R. Yehuda doesn't seem worried about it since a son should serve his father. IF a son is old enough to know where he came from, then he'd know where his mother came from, his father (the grandfathers), in-law, cousins, neighbors, everyone.
Are there any other perushim on this piece?
Thank you.
David Goldman, USA
As you say Rashi explains that this Issur is due to Hirhur. However Chazal only prohibited washing with one's father, father-in-law, mother's husband and brother-in-law. It would seem that Chazal were primarily concerned with Hirhur related to a person's closest family, because in this way a person will come to think about the cause for his own conception. This is most likely to occur when exposed to his father in an undressed state, or similarly to his mother's husband. Also his father-in-law would fit in to this category. A person's sister's husband does not however seem to fit in, unless we say that seeing a person's sister's husband also reminds a person of his own conception because his sister and himself both come from the same place.
The Meiri explains that the concern is that he will think about his wife (in the case of the father-in-law) and his sister (in the case of his brother-in-law). As to his father (and presumably his step-father) the Meiri says that the Chashash is that the situation will lead to a lack of respect for his father.
Dov Freedman
Thank you for your reply. I had been seeking the Art Scrolls gemara on Pesachim but was unable to find one.
My basic question still was why such a thought of conception would be considered particularly negative only in relation to these people, but not to a grandfather, uncle or anyone else.
Indeed, why is this considered negative at all, and why would it lead to disrespect? Especially since other relatives or people are not included in the notion that people would think of conception origins in general Whether this relates to a public bath or mikveh. I believe I saw that being with one's brother there is also prohibited.
David Goldman
This is what I was trying to address when I wrote that by when a person sees his father this is more likely to cause him to come to think about his own conception than when he sees aother people, since he sees the actual place where he came from. This may then lead him to further thoughts about how he came to be conceived, leading to a transgression of the prohibition of v'Nishmartem (Avodah Zara 20a, Rambam Issurei Bi'ah 21:19 and Shulchan Aruch Even ha'Ezer 23:3). The same reasoning can also be applied to a person's step-father. A sister's husband is more problematic, but perhaps can be explained in a similar way, as I wrote. All this reasoning is not applicable with others, even grandfathers and uncles, since a person does not come directly from them and is therefore less likely to come to Hirhur.
Brothers are not prohibited unless there is a Minhag otherwise in a specific place (Pesachim 51a see also Shukchan Aruch Even ha'Ezer 23:6).
Dov Freedman