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1. Someone else stirs the blood 2. Orlah is not "Hutrah mi'Kelalah"
DAF DISCUSSIONS - PESACHIM 61

Dahvid Irom asked:

Rashi says we learn that an "arel" is not permitted to eat any korban. Rashi says we learn this out in Yevamos from a kal vachomer from Korban Pesach which is "kal." Where in Yevamos is this stated and how is Pesach "kal?"

Thank You,

Dahvid Irom

Yeshivat Ohr Yerushalayim

Moshav Beit Meir, Israel

The Kollel replies:

The GILYONEI HA'SHAS (Ha'Gaon Rav Yosef Engel) asks your question on Rashi. Not only does no such Gemara exist, but the laws of Kodshim cannot be learned from Pesach, since it is more Chamur than other Kodshim because a person who breaks a bone of the Pesach transgresses a Lav, as the YERUSHALMI refutes this Kal va'Chomer in Yevamos 8:1. (It is Chamur in many other ways as well: one who does not bring it is Chayav Kares (Gilyonei ha'Shas, ibid.), and it is only eaten by appointed members (Menuyim), it is not eaten during the day, it is only eaten roasted. The Halachah of appointing members is not learned from Pesach to other Kodshim with a Kal va'Chomer, by the way.) The Yerushalmi concludes that other Kodshim are learned from Pesach through a Gezeirah Shavah , and not a Kal va'Chomer. But this does not seem to be the intention of Rashi.

The Gilyonei ha'Shas notes that the SEFER YERE'IM (#394) also brings the Kal va'Chomer of Rashi as a source for the Isur of Arel b'Kodshim. The Yere'im then adds that the Isur for an Arel to eat all Kodshim can also be learned through a Kal va'Chomer from Ma'aser Sheni, which is certainly more Kal than Kodshim. (The Gemara makes such a Kal va'Chomer from Ma'aser Sheni regarding the Isurim of Onan and Tamei, Yevamos 73b, Zevahim 101a.)

I suppose it could be argued b'Dochek that this is Rashi's intention as well, since the Isur of Ma'aser to an Arel is itself learned from Pesach (through a Gezeirah Shavah), in Yevamos 74a. In either case, Rashi does not seem to mean that the Gemara in Yevamos makes a Kal va'Chomer; the Gemara there just states that other Kodshim are also Asur to an Arel, like Pesach (top of 74a). The Kal va'Chomer is his own.

If he indeed means that Pesach is more Kal, he is referring to the fact that it is not only Kodshim Kalim but also a Korban Tzibur, which becomes Mutar b'Tum'as Tzibur. All other Korbanos are either Kodshei Kodshim or they are brought by individuals and therefore not permitted b'Tum'ah. It is still not clear, though, why the law of Menuyim is not an unanswerable Pircha to this Kal va'Chomer.

Best wishes,

Mordecai Kornfeld

Dahvid Irom asked:

>> how is Pesach "kal?"<<

Dahvid Irom

Yeshivat Ohr Yerushalayim

Moshav Beit Meir, Israel

The Kollel replies:

Dahvid,

I might have an answer to the question that we were left with yesterday. You wanted to know, how can we make a Kal va'Chomer that if an Arel cannot eat from the Korban Pesach, he cannot eat from other Korbanos. The Korban Pesach is more Chamur, since it is a Chiyuv Kares if not brought, it is eaten only roasted, only for appointees (Menuyum), only at night and only until Chatzos.

The answer might be as follows. The Mitzvah of eating a Korban Pesach can be looked at in two distinct ways. It can be looked at as an obligation incumbent on each and every person to bring and eat the Korban. And it can also be viewed as any other Korban, which must be eaten during the allowed timespan in order for it not to become Nosar.

Although people normally associate these two Mitzvos of eating the Pesach, the OR SAME'ACH (Chametz 6:1) and others have shown that they may not be related at all. In fact, he points out that even after Chatzos, the Korban Pesach may be eaten according to all opinions; the limitation of Chatzos according to Rebbi Elazar ben Azaryah is only to fulfilling the obligation of Korban Pesach that is incumbent on the individual, but even if eating after Chatzos does not fulfill that obligation, it is permitted (and even obligatory) in order to prevent the Korban from becoming Nosar, just like any other Korban.

Although his contention regarding eating after Chatzos seems to be contradicted by the Gemara on 71a (as he himself writes, and as mentioned in our Dafyomi notes), nevertheless regarding eating the Korban not roasted, not appointed, and during the day, he certainly seems to be right; one does not fulfill the obligation of eating the Pesach, but one has transgressed no Isur, and even is considered to be eating Kodshim, which is a Mitzvah.

If so, the Kal va'Chomer of Rashi is clear. The Halachah that an Arel may not eat a Korban Pesach is not related to the Mitzvah incumbent on the individual, but even to the general laws of eating the Pesach as a Korban. It is prohibited for an Arel to eat the Korban, as the Torah says. It is obviously a law in the Korban and not in the Mitzvah of eating Pesach. If so, the fact that one is Chayav Kares for not fulfilling Mitzvah of eating Pesach, or that one does not fulfill the Mitzvah of eating Pesach by eating it raw, unappointed, and during the day, is not related to the Isur of an Arel eating a Korban at all. The same applies for after Chatzos, according to the Or Same'ach; it is a law related only to the Mitzvah of eating Pesach. (Even if we do not accept the view of the Or Same'ach on this matter, that is only because the Korban is no longer edible once the Mitzvah of eating Pesach cannot be fulfilled with the Korban, since that is the main reason it is brought. If so, the Halachah of not eating the Pesach after Chatzos is indeed a law related only to the Mitzvah of eating Pesach, and not to its status as a Korban alone.)

-Mordecai Kornfeld