Question (Rava): Does blood seen b'Koshi Soser (cancel all) the clean days already counted after Zivah?

Tamei blood is Soser, and this blood is Tamei. (She is still a Zavah);

Or, perhaps only blood that is Gorem (causes Tum'as Zivah ) is Soser. This blood is not Gorem!

Answer #1 (Abaye): We learn from Zov that a man sees b'Ones. It is not Gorem, but it is Soser!

Objection (Rava): That is also Gorem!

(Mishnah): The first two times a man sees Zov, we check him. The third time, we do not check him.

Answer (Abaye): We learn from R. Eliezer. He says that we check the third time. Will you say that since the third sighting is not Gorem b'Ones, it is not Soser?!

Objection (Rava): Indeed according to R. Eliezer [since a third sighting b'Ones is not Gorem, it is not Soser]!

Answer #2 (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): We check on the third sighting, but not on the fourth.

Suggestion: We need not check the fourth sighting, for even b'Ones it is Soser!

Rejection: No, we need not check regarding the Zov itself, for it has Tum'as Masa even b'Ones. (However, if it was b'Ones, it is not Soser.)

Answer #3 (Beraisa - R. Eliezer): We check on the third sighting, but not on the fourth. We check only to know if he brings a Korban. (However, in any case he is Soser!)

Rejection (Rava): Indeed, according to R. Eliezer even though something (e.g. a third sighting b'Ones) is not Gorem, it is Soser. I ask according to Chachamim.

Answer #4 (R. Avin's father - Beraisa): Zov is Gorem (causes) a man to be Tamei for seven days, therefore it is Soser seven days;

Semen causes a man to be Tamei for one day, therefore it is Soser one day.

Question: Why is Zov Soser seven days?

Suggestion: It is Soser seven because a man who sees Zov (twice) is Tamei for seven days.

Rejection: If so, the Beraisa should have said this!

Answer: Rather, the Beraisa specifies that Zov is Gorem Tum'ah, to teach that only what is Gorem is Soser.

(Abaye): Blood seen b'Koshi does not Soser (clean days counted after) Zivah.

If a Tana says that it is, it is R. Eliezer.

(Beraisa - R. Merinus): Tum'as Yoledes is not Soser Zivah.

Question: Do clean days during Tum'as Yoledes count (towards the seven clean days that a Zavah must count?) (Tosfos - we ask according to R. Merinus.)

Answer #1 (Abaye): They are not Soser, but they do not count.

Answer #2 (Rava): They are not Soser, and they count.

Rava: "V'Achar Tit'har" teaches that Tum'ah may not be in the middle (of the seven clean days).

Granted, if the days count, they are not considered Tum'ah, so they are not Soser.

However, if they do not count, they should be Soser!

Rejection (Abaye): "V'Achar Tit'har" teaches that there may not be Tum'as Zivah in the middle, but Tum'as Yoledes is not Soser.

Support (Rava, for himself - Beraisa): "(A Zavah will become Tehorah) mi'Zovah" -- she may become Tehorah from her Zivah alone, even if she is Teme'ah due to Tzara'as or birth.

Rejection (Abaye): The Beraisa should say "... even if she is Teme'ah due to Tzara'as." (It should not mention birth.)

Objection (Rava): "(A Zav will become Tahor) mi'Zovo" -- a Zav may become Tahor from Zivah, even if he is a Metzora (and similarly, a Zavah who is a Metzora'as);

Granted, if the Beraisa mentions a Metzora'as and a Yoledes, we can say that Yoledes was truly learned from "mi'Zovah," and Metzora'as (which is really learned from "mi'Zovo") was appended;

However, if it teaches only about a Metzora'as, why must it learn from "mi'Zovah"?

Answer (Abaye): The Torah must teach about a (Metzora who is a) Zav and a (Metzora'as who is a) Zavah. Neither could be learned from the other:

Had it taught only about a Zav, one might have thought that this is because one does not become a Zav through Ones, therefore he can become Tahor even when he has Tzara'as. However, a Zavah, who becomes Teme'ah through Ones, must first become Tehorah from Tzara'as;

Had it taught only about a Zavah, one might have thought that this is because three days are needed to become a Zavah, but one can become a Zav (through three sightings) in one day. He cannot become Tahor until he is Tahor from Tzara'as.

Support (Abaye, for himself - Beraisa): "Devosah Titma" includes Bo'el Yoledes (he is like Bo'el Nidah). It includes the nights (Tum'as Yoledes applies also at night), and it teaches that Yoledes b'Zov must count seven clean days.

Suggestion: The days must be clean from Tum'as Yoledes!

Rejection: No, they must be clean from blood.

Support (Abaye, for himself - Beraisa): The Torah equates the days of Tum'as Yoledes to the days of Nidah:

Just like the days of Nidah, in which she cannot become a Zavah, do not count towards seven clean days, the same applies to days of Tum'as Yoledes.

Rejection (Rava): R. Eliezer taught that Beraisa. He says that the days are even Soser.

Question: How can we learn from the days of Nidah? It is impossible for them to count towards the seven clean days! (If a Zavah sees blood before seven clean days, it is not Nidah. It is Soser her clean days.) Days of Tum'as Yoledes could count!

Version #1 - Answer #1 (Rav Achdevoy bar Ami): The Beraisa is R. Eliezer, who says that we learn what is possible from what is impossible.

Answer #2 (Rav Sheshes): Since the Torah equated the days of Nidah and the days of Tum'as Yoledes, all agree that we learn one from the other. (Tosfos - this is because since there is nothing else to learn from the Hekesh.)

Version #2: Rav Achdevoy gave Answer #1 in the name of Rav Sheshes. Rav Papa gave Answer #2.

(Mishnah): If a woman saw blood for three days (... the respite must be from the pain, and not from the blood).

Question: What if she had respite from the pain and the blood?

Answer #1 (Rav Chisda): She is a Zavah. (It is as if there was respite.)

Answer #2 (R. Chanina): She is Tehorah. (It is as if there was no respite.)

R. Chanina: This is like a king who went out. His soldiers went in front of him. Surely, they went due to him (even if he delays coming a day or two. Here also, the blood and pain were due to the upcoming birth!)

Rav Chisda: All the more so, there will be many soldiers right before the king comes! (Here also, if they were due to the birth, they should have become more intense when the birth gets closer!)

Question (against Rav Chisda - Mishnah - R. Yehoshua): The respite must be for a Halachic day, e.g. Shabbos. The respite must be from the pain, and not from the blood.

Inference: If the respite was from the pain and the blood, she is Tehorah!

Answer: The Mishnah teaches a bigger Chidush:

She is a Zavah not only if the respite was from the pain and the blood, and the Simanim of birth ceased entirely. Rather, it is even if the respite was only from the pain, but not from the blood;

One might have thought that the blood proves that she is still amidst labor. She did not feel the pain because she was dazed. The Mishnah teaches that this is not so.

Question (against R. Chanina - Mishnah): If a woman saw blood b'Koshi for three consecutive days during the 11 days of Zivah, and had 24 hours respite before giving birth, she is Yoledes b'Zov.

Question: What is the case?

It cannot be like the simple understanding. There is no need for three days b'Koshi. Two days b'Koshi suffice, and the third day can be amidst respite!

Answer #1: It means that she saw blood b'Koshi for three consecutive days, and had respite from the pain and the blood, or if she saw blood b'Koshi for two consecutive days, and saw blood on the third amidst respite from the pain.

This refutes R. Chanina.

Answer (and Answer #2 to Question 1): Really, it is like the simple understanding. It teaches that even though the blood was amidst Koshi all three days, she is Yoledes b'Zov, unlike Chananya.