the gemara asks regarding missing mincha if one can daven two maarivs. It depends on how you look at it. one way is the day passed and you cannot bring that korban any more. my question is if in the Beis Hamikdosh they forgot to bring the morning tamid would they be able to bring it as a tashlumin after the afternoon tomid if it was still the same day?Is there any source for this in Kodshim? Thank you
menchem smith, bal harbor, fl, usa
The Rambam (Hilchos Temidin u'Musafin 1:12) heavily implies that there would not be Tashlumin for the Tamid Shel Shachar, as he states that if people mistakenly, accidentally, or purposely did not bring the Tamid Shel Shachar during its proper time, the Tamid Shel Bein ha'Arbayim can still be brought (under most circumstances, see ibid.). This implies that there is no Halachah to bring a Tashlumin for it at all.
All the best,
Yaakov Montrose
But then the question should be asked how we can compare the laws of tashlumin to korbonos if there is no law at all of tashlumin even if it is the same day.
Please reply,
Menachem Smith
Tosfos in Menachos 50a (DH ba'Meh Devarim) holds that once the time for a Tamid has passed, it can no longer be brought. Tosfos in Yoma 46a (DH Aval) disagree, and hold that the Korban may be brought even on a subsequent day. (Whilst it is true that the Mishneh l'Melech in Ma'aseh ha'Korbanos (4:3) explains Tosfos in a different way, his Pshat is certainly not the simple way to learn Tosfos and is rejected by the Tal Torah on Yomah 46a. He explains that the Gemara Temurah 14a that Avar Yomo Batal Korbano refers only to Musafim.
We can therefore say that your question remains valid according to Tosfos in Menachos and indeed the Pnei Yehoshua and the Rashash (Berachos 26a) both raise this problem.
We can answer that a Korban has two aspects; the duty to be Makriv it and the Kaparah that the Hakravah produces. Similarly a Tefilah has two aspects; the Chiyuv to Daven and the Rachamim that the Tefilah is m'Orer on Klal Yisrael. We can only bring a Korban when there is a Chiyuv to bring one, otherwise it is Chulin b'Azarah, hence once the time has passed for a Korban we have missed the oppurtunity to receive the Kaparah of the Korban. There is no possibility to get the Kaparah. (Although it is true that a Tzibur can be m'Nadeiv a Korban Olah, this would still not be a Korban Tamid.)
The Anshei Keneses ha'Gedolah were Mesakein Tefilos and they decided that even if the time of a Tefilah was missed, the Tefilah can still be made up as a Tashlumim, because even if the Tefilah b'Zmanah is gone, they still wanted to give the person the chance to achieve the Rachmei Shamayim that can be brought about by the Tefilah. Here we do not have the problem of Chulin b'Azarah as Rebbi Yochanan said it would be preferable for a person to Daven all day. The Gemara, however, has a Safek if we say this even on a different day. We can explain this by saying that the Chiyuv Tashlumim, is not to Daven the old Tefilah at the wrong time, rather it is to Daven the Tefilah that is now relevant twice. We see this from the words of the Gemara that "he Davens Minchah twice". It is also apparent from the Rashba and other Rishonim who say that a Tashlumim can only be done when the time of the next Tefilah comes. This is also stated explicitly in Teshuvos Maharil quoted in Magen Avraham (187:17). Since the Tashlumim belongs to the new time, the Gemara was unsure if even on a different day we say Chazal allowed a Tashlumim even though it is not applicable by Korbanos since Tefilah is Rachamim, or they said that here, even for Tefilah, since it is a new day, we say Batal Karbano.
Dov Freedman
According to Tosfos in Yoma 46a that the karban Tamid may be brought a few days later then why would there be a possible problem with a tashlumin tefilla a day later?
How does the fact that there are two aspects of tefilla and two aspects of karban answer the question?
Menachem Smith
I was actually answering the question you asked on the Rishonim who are of the opinion that even on the same day there is no Tashlumim.
According to Tosfos in Yoma 46a that Tashlumim is possible even on a later day, the question is the other way around. In other words, why does the Gemara have a Havah Amina that Tashlumim must be on the same day? Indeed some Rishonim hold that according to the Maskanah, the Tashlumim may be done days later (Meiri, ha'Gahos Maimoni'os (Tefilah 3:10) and Ravad (ibid.)).
We could explain that since Chazal were only Mesaken the Tashlumim as an attachment to the Chiyuv Tefilah he has later (see Ravad quoted above), perhaps Chazal only allowed such an attachment as long as both Tefilos belong to the same day.
We may also say that besides for the specific Chiyuv to Daven each one of the three individual Tefilos every day, there is also a general Chiyuv to Daven three Tefilos every day. This is learnt out of the Pasuk in Daniel 6 that the Gemara quotes on 31a saying that a person should Daven three times a day. The Gemara thought that perhaps the Din Tashlumim is that even though he has missed the specific Tefilah that Chazal instituted, nevertheless should still Daven in order to at least rectify the Din of three Tefilos in a day. If this Din is also missed then Chazal were not Mesaken a Tashlumim. The Gemara concludes that even where he will not have three Tefilos in the day that he missed Davening, there is still a Din Tashlumim.
Dov Freedman