More Discussions for this daf
1. Tosfos, pushing bundles of reeds into another Reshus 2. Transferring an Item 4 Amos in Reshus ha'Rabim above 10 Tefachim 3. Carrying a Kevares
4. Pillar of 9 Tefachim 5. Techum Shabbos 6. Shvus During Bein ha'Shemashos
7. Seven and a bit 8. Kaveres 9. Help!
10. Bottom Tosfos on 8b 11. A wheelbarrow on Shabbat 12. THROWING A BASKET INTO RESHUS HA'RABIM
13. Wording of the Gemara "Kol Davar..." 14. "l'Ma'alah"
DAF DISCUSSIONS - SHABBOS 8

Mendel asks:

Am I allowed to carry (As opposed to throwing) a closed refrigerator box (empty) from Reshus to reshus & why?

Mendel, B"K, NY

The Kollel replies:

Sholom Rav,

I assume that (a) you are referring to a box that is 4x4x10 Tefachim, and that (b) you want to know whether you will be Chayav Chatas if you do carry it.

If I'm right, then the answer is that you will be Chayav Chatas. My source is a Gemara on Daf 92a. Rebbi Elazar rules there that someone who carries four Amos above ten Tefachim in the street is Chayav, because the B'nei K'has carried the Holy vessels on their shoulders. And the Gemara concludes there that we learn it from the Aron . Now the Aron was ten Tefachim tall and more than four by four Tefachim, rendering it a Reshus ha'Yachid. Yet the Gemara brings a proof from there that one is Chayav.

Clearly then, although one is not Chayav for throwing a Reshus because it was not done in the Mishkan, one is Chayav for carrying a Reshus since it was done in the Mishkan.

Be'Virchas Kol Tuv

Eliezer Chrysler.

Meir Zirkind asks:

According to the Possuk the height of the Aron Hakodesh was 1.5 Amois, which means, if the Amois were 5 Tefachim: 7.5 was its height and if 6 Tefachim per Amoh then it was 9 Tefachim tall.

Meir Zirkind

The Kollel replies:

I assume that your question is that the Aron was nine Tefachim tall and not ten. The cover, though, was one Tefach thick, for a total of ten. (See Sukah 5b.)

B'Virchas Kol Tuv,

Eliezer Chrysler

Meir Zirkind asks further:

However that only goes according to R. Meir (in that Gemara/Sugya) who says that the Amos of the Keilim were 6 Tefachim.

According to R. Yehudah who says they were 5 Tefachim, the Aron Hakodesh with the Kapores were only 8.5 Tefachim. According to R. Yehudah, you have no proof, especially since the Rambam H. Bais Habchirah 2:6 Paskens like R. Yehuda (probably since the Halacha Follows R. Yehuda when he argues with R. Meir).

Meir Zirkind

The Kollel replies:

Interestingly, the Rambam's Psak notwithstanding, the Gemara in Shabbos 92a that I cited earlier seems to take for granted that the height of the Aron was ten Tefachim. Moreover, the Torah Temimah in Parshas Terumah cites the Yerushalmi (in Shekalim) which emphatically states that the Aron was ten Tefachim tall and makes no mention of a second opinion. Consequently, one who has not learned the Sugya in Sukah (which cites the Machlokes between Rebbi Meir and Rebbi Yehudah) and has not seen the Rambam will take that for granted.

As for the question regarding carrying a Reshus, however, it seems clear that one will be Chayav. Why is that? Bearing in mind that the question is based on the fact that "they did not throw Reshuyos in the Mishkan," they did carry Reshuyos. Even according to Rebbi Yehudah, who maintains that the Aron was not a Reshus, as you pointed out, they also carried the Mizbe'ach ha'Nechoshes, which measured 5 X 5 X 10 Amos, and which certainly was a Reshus according to all opinions. Consequently, there is no reason why one should not be Chayav for carrying it on Shabbos.

B'Virchas Kol Tuv,

Eliezer Chrysler

Meir Zirkind comments:

In your support - see Tosfos Yeshanim on Shabbos 8a who says they carried Reshuyos like the Aron and Mizbechos.

Also see the 4th Mar'eh ha'Panim on Yerushalmi Shabbos Perek 10 s.v. Hotzi, who writes clearly that anything 10x4 is a Reshus ha'Yachid and therefore if one throws it from RHY to RHR he is Patur and if one makes an Akirah with it in RHR and goes 4 Amos in RHR he is Chayav.

Meir Zirkind