From: INSIGHTS INTO THE DAILY DAF
>>WHAT DAY DO WE CELEBRATE SHAVUOS
>>QUESTION: The TUR and SHULCHAN ARUCH (OC 494:1) write that Shavuos is celebrated on the sixth of Sivan, fifty days after the day on which the Omer offering was brought (the second day of Pesach). This implies that the month of Iyar in the year that the Torah was given was not a full (Malei) month, but was 29 days long. If Iyar of that year had been 30 days long, then Matan Torah would have been on the fifty-first day after the day of the Omer offering, and not on the fiftieth.
>>The Gemara seems to conclude that according to the Rabanan, who maintain that the Torah was given on the sixth of Sivan, there indeed were 51 days between Pesach and Shavuos (since the Gemara (87b) resolves the Beraisa which conflicts with the opinion of the Rabanan by saying that Iyar of that year had thirty days). How, then, can it be that Shavuos is on the sixth of Sivan and yet it is only fifty days after the day of the Omer offering?
You wrote that according to the Rabanan there were 51 days between Pesach and Shavuos. Once the Gemara (88a) brings down the Seder Olam, it backs off from its answer that Iyar had 30 days since Pesach was on a Friday (not a Thursday) and Sivan 6 was a Shabbos. Thus, according to the Rabanan, they were 50 days apart but according to R. Yosi (who says Pesach was a Thursday), they were 51 days apart. What you have above is wrong.
The real interesting question is why the Gemara did not ask a question on R. Yosi that he says they are 51 days apart but they should only be 50 day apart. Clearly, the Gemara did not believe the two (Mattan Torah and Shavous) are related.
Thank you. We mentioned the calculation of the Seder Olam in answer (a) (although we did not point out that the Gemara itself quotes it too). Regarding whether the Rabanan "backed off," I disagree. The Gemara says that the Rabanan can hold both like the Beraisa (left Egypt Thursday) and like the Seder Olam (left on Friday).
We addressed your other question in answers (c) and (d).
Be well,
Mordecai Kornfeld
(a) On the last point, my question is why the Gemara does not ask the obvious question. I don't doubt that it could give answers.
(b) With respect to the first point, where do you see that "The Gemara says that the Rabanan can hold both"? The Gemara does not suggest that part of the Rabanan hold they went out on Thursday and others hold they went out on Friday. Obviously no one can hold both. Furthermore, the Gemara has no evidence that the Rabanan hold they went out on Thursday since that Beraisa (Shabbos 87b) can go according to R. Yosi as the following Beraisa which must go according to R.Yosi.
(c) On an additional point, does Acherim hold that the Torah was given on Shabbos since he holds they went out on Wednesday?
(a) You are correct. Apparently the answer was obvious to the Gemara. Either it held like the Rivash (in answer (c) of our Insight; since the Torah does not explicitly link Shavuos to Matan Torah, they need not be related) or like the Asarah Ma'amaros (answer (d), that it is the holiday marking when the Torah was ready to be given, even if it was not given for other reasons).
(b) I meant the Rabanan can hold either. Even if the Beraisa can be according to Rebbi Yosi, the Gemara always prefers showing that it need not be limited to a single Tana's opinion.
(c) We will have an answer for this question shortly.
Best wishes,
Mordecai Kornfeld
(a) Thank you for your reply. I noticed that the ArtScroll (English) on Shabbos 88a note 6 says, based on the Ramban and Ran, that the Rabbonim all agree in the conclusion of the Gemara that the Exodus was Friday. However, the Shulchan Aruch Harav seems to say that the Exodus was Thursday but Sivan 6 was Shabbos.
I don't know if this Gemara is the source.
(b) Your answer (d) above is doubtful since the Gemara should have at least asked the "51 day" question according to R. Yosi. Apparently the Gemara didn't even consider it a question as in answer (c) above.
Have a Good Shabbos from a fellow Netzach Israel (Brooklyn) alumni.
Bernard Dickman
PS I am writing a paper on this topic and the subsequent 40 day periods.
Yashek Koach, Bernard.
(a) I think the Tur already wrote what the Shulchan Aruch Harav says (cited in our Insight).
(b) I think you mean Rabanan not Rebbi Yosi. But I'm not sure it is necessary to say that Rabanan argue and say Moshe did not add a day on his own. Although that is the simple reading of the Gemara, I think the Rabanan can agree to that point (if Moshe didn't give them a day to rest from their journey, for example). (Don't we all assume that everyone agrees to the Beraisa that Moshe did three things on his own and Hashem conceded?)
Best wishes and Hatzlachah Rabah with your paper,
Mordecai Kornfeld
PS. We're putting up a great Shiur from Rav Landy on Matan Torah.
(a) I don't see it at all. Tur seems to hold like R. Yosi (Yoreh Deah 196:11)
(b) Not at all. I believe that the general understanding is that Hashem told Moshe on Sivan 4 (Thursday according to Rabanan and Wednesday according to R. Yosi) that they abstain "today and tomorrow". Where is the extra day for the Rabanan? Also, if Rabanan and R. Yosi agree that they abstained an extra day, how do you learn the Gemara on Shabbos 86a where R. Eleazer ben Azariah follows the Rabanan and R. Akiva follows R. Yosi.The number of Onos abstained is the same for both of them according to you.
Thanks for all your help.
Dr. Bernard Dickman
(a) You are referring to Rebbi Yosi's Shitah regarding Poletes. As you know the Magen Avraham (beginning OC #494) suggested that the Tur and Shulchan Aruch there only took Rebbi Yosi's opinion as a Chumra, but they may actually hold like the Rabanan l'Halachah.
When I wrote that the Tur says like the Shulchan Aruch ha'Rav, I was referring to the days of the week of Yetzi'as Mitzrayim (Thursday, Tur OC # 430) and Matan Torah (Shabbos, Tur OC # 292), as we wrote in our Insights there.
(b) As I wrote, according to the Rabanan Hashem may have told Moshe on three Sivan, once we say that Moshe added a third day.
Regarding the Gemara on 86a, you are making a good point. But bear in mind that the Gemara there already knew the conclusion of the Gemara (88a) and the Rabanan it is referring to are the ones who say Yetzi'as Mitzrayim was on a Friday . These Rabanan have the giving of the Torah on day 50, as it should be, so they have no need to say Moshe's day was the 51st.
(According to you these are the only Rabanan; according to me, other Rabanan may hold that they left Egypt on Thursday, Iyar had 30 days, and the Torah was given on day 51 after Moshe added a day "on his own.")
You may wonder what the Gemara thought until it brought up the opinion that Moshe added a day. If the Torah was given on day 51, it should ask why our Shavuos is day 50!
We can answer simply that the Gemara could have asked that, however, it had other questions to resolve first (which ended up resolving this question as well). Alternatively, we can resort to the Ritva's answer here, that perhaps the Gemara thought that they argued about the date of Shavuos as well! (The Ritva seems to say this even l'Maskana, but as I mentioned l'Maskana we have a better answer, based on the teaching that Moshe added a day.) Even if such a suggestion for the Gemara's original conjecture is somewhat forced, it is easier than making a Machlokes whether or not Shavuos commemorates Matan Torah. It seems evident from a dozen Midrashic sources that the two are indeed related.
Best wishes (and regards form Maier Solomon and Mordechai Mackner),
Mordecai Kornfeld