Your site wrote the following: R. Shimon says, even if he was 15 Amos outside he may enter, for those who measure do not put the Techum marker at the full 2000 Amos, due to people who err [and walk past it. Alternatively, those who measure the Techum err, i.e. they grasp the rope in their hands, consuming a Tefach and a half finger on each side of the rope. (Perhaps the extra half finger sticks out below the hand, or vertically above, until it gets horizontal - PF.) Each 50 Amos measured lacks two Tefachim and a finger. The total deficit in 2000 Amos is 80 Tefachim and 10 Tefachim (40 fingers), i.e. 15 Amos.]
I saw the Rashi. I understand the math. The numbers work perfectly. Here is what I do not understand. If the ropes are exactly 50 Amos, then it does not matter if the part of the rope that they were holding covered a Tefach, since if they counted from the end of one hand holding to the end of the other hand at the other end of the rope and including their hand they would get 50 Amos with no reason to add an extra 15 Amos. If they only counted each rope as 47.75 Amos, (not counting the part of the rope covered by their hands) then if they add the 2..25 Amos for the hands, then they get a total of 50 Amos with no reason to add the exra 1 Amos. (47.75 of the part of the rope not covered by their hands and 2.25 of the part of the rope that that is covered by their hands .
So what EXACTLY is the Pshat in the extra 15 Amos?
Thanking you in advance for your help with this question.
Boruch, Brooklyn, NY
The Ritva here writes that the way of people who measure ("Derech Mamodedin") is that they measure with the rope only and do not take into account the length of the rope which is held by the hands. It is not the accepted practice to count the part of the rope that the hand is holding.
Kesivah vaChasimah Tovah
Dovid Bloom
Follow-up reply:
1) I found, bs'd, that the Gaon Yaakov DH Mipnei asks this question.
He writes:
"Lamah LeHu Lemiutei LeBeit Achizah veLo Tzaiti Lehu LeRabanan"?; Why did they not measure the part of the rope which is being held? Why did they not listen to Rabanan?
2) Gaon Yaakov answers with the words of the Rambam, in his commentary on the Mishnah, that they were machmir and measured less than the real amount. They deducted a small amount from every rope length. However Gaon Yaakov asks on his own answer; if so why did R. Shimon give the person who left the Techum exactly 15 amos? It seems that in his conclusion the Gaon Yaakov conceeds that he does not possess a satisfactory answer to his question.
3) I argue that the Ritva that I cited above, answers this question. The Gaon Yaakov asks why did they not listen to Rabanan who said that one should include the place grasped by the hand in the measurement? According to the Ritva the Rabanan never said that one should include the part grasped by the hand. Rather, the Ritva writes that the way of measurers is not to include the part of the rope held in one's hand. It seems that Chazal said that one should do measuring according to the professional expertise.
4) In fact. Rashi 35b end DH BeZu mentions the idea of doing the same way that the measurers do. When one measures in hilly ground the person at the bottom places the rope opposite his heart and the person at the top palces the rope opposite his feet. Rashi concludes that this is "the way of all measurers".
5) The professional way of doing measurements is only to take into account the revealed part of the rope, not the part held in one's hands, which is why when measuring for Eruvin they did not include the part of the rope covered by the hands.
KOL TUV
Dovid Bloom
How the Ritva fits in with the words of the Gemara:-
I should point out that I have presented above that there is a dispute between the Ritva and the Gaon Yaakov; whether or not the measurers did the right thing by not including the amount grasped by the hands in their measurements. The Gaon Yaakov would seem to reflect the words of the Gemara better, since the Gemara calls them "Toyei Hamidah"; "they err with the measurements".
It seems that according to the Ritva one has to say that "Toyei Hamidah" does not mean that they made a mistake, but rather it means that the measurement that they gave us differs from the figure that one would obtain if one included all of the 50 amah of the rope; including the handle of the rope at each end which is included in the figure of 50 amah. They are "toyei"; they err from the full length of the rope; but they have a good reason to do this because this is the "way of the measurers". The Ritva 35b also writes like Rashi there; that when measuring the hills one does it "KeDerech Hamodedin"; like the expert measurers do.
Dovid Bloom
Thank you for your reply, however I don't understand your response.
How long is the rope? 50 Amos. They hold 2.25 Tefochim with their hands. How much are they counting this as? If 50 Amos, then number is correct. If 47.75 Amos, then when the add the 40*2.25, the total will be 2000 and that number is correct and therefore there is no need to add the add the extra 15 Amos.
Now if the rope lengths were a total of 50 Amos + 2.25 Tefochim , and they counted each rope as 50 Amos and ignored the 2.25 Tefochim, then I would understand why they should add the 15 Amos at the end.
But the rope length was 50 Amos, so why add the 15 Amos at the end?
1) The rope is 50 amos long and they hold 2.25 tefochim with their hands. Boruch; you deducted 2.25 amos from 50 amos but instead you should have deducted 2.25 tefochim.
2) The Ritva 52b DH Tana writes that "the way of the measurers" is only to count the length of the open rope, not the length which is held by the hands.
3) 40 ropes of 50 amos each are needed to measure 2000 amos so there are 40*2.25 tefochim = 90 tefochim which have been measured but have not been counted.
4) 90 tefochim = 15 amos.
This is why 15 amos must be added.
Yasher Koach
Dovid Bloom
Thank you so much for your responses, still have my Kasha...I will try again to explain:
You wrote in number 2 of your recent response: "the way of the measurers is only to count the length of the open rope, not the length which is held by the hands"
That means for a rope of 50 Amos long and they hold 2.25 Tefachim, so the counters only counted 47.75 Amos.
So the Chesbon is 40 ropes 47.75 PLUS the hands which are 40 2.25 Tefachim which is 90 Tefachim, so the GRAND TOTAL is only 2,000 AMOS (the 2,000 AMOS already includes the additional 15 Amos of the hands since you wrote in number 2 that they deducted the length which is held by the hands when they counted the 40 ropes) So the total is 2,000 AMOS including the hands...so why count the extra 15 Amos ?
Boruch, you have confused amos with tefachim. There are 6 tefachim in 1 amah. Therefore, the counters did not count 47.75 amos; rather they counted 50 amos minus 2.25 tefachim, which equals 49 amos plus 3.75 tefachim
(since 2.25+3.75 tefachim = 6 tefachim = 1 amah).
Gmar Chasimah Tovah
Dovid Bloom