More Discussions for this daf
1. "Sleight of hand" in the Goralos 2. Spelling of Pasuk "Yo'omad" or "Ya'omad" 3. Par before Seir
4. Se'ir Ein Me'akev Es ha'Par 5. Blood 6. Essential versus Non-Essential
7. עלה בשמאל מהו
DAF DISCUSSIONS - YOMA 40

moshe asked:

your daf point by point starts 40: with the pasuk from Achrei Mos, "Yo'omad Chai". I realize translitteration is a tough thing, but shouldn't it be spelled "Ya'omad", since there's a patach under the yud, and a kometz katan under the ayin? I'm a ba'al koreh, and i believe that would be meakav enough to correct someone if they lained it "Yo'omad".

regards,

moshe, ramat bet shemesh

The Kollel replies:

When you say "a Patach under the Yud," I assume that you mean a Kamatz (as it appears in all of the prints of the Chumash), which the Sefardim pronounce similar to a Patach (since it is a Kamatz Gadol). We transliterate the Kamatz Gadol with an "a", so you would like us to use an "a" for this word as well.

The Ayin of the word in question has a Chataf-Kamatz. As you agreed, the Chataf-Kamatz is a Chataf-Kamatz Katan , which we usually transliterate with an "o".

In general, whenever a guttural letter is supposed to have a Sheva Na, it is given a Chataf+vowel instead (since it is hard to pronounce an Alef/Ayin/Ches/Heh with a Sheva Na). The vowel chosen for the Chataf is generally the same as the one that immediately precedes it. Thus, in the case of Yo'omad Chai, if the Ayin has a Chataf-Kamatz Katan, then the Yud must have had a Kamatz Katan. In short, the Kamatz under the Yud and the Ayin should be the same type of Kamatz.

A Kamatz Katan is found only when a Cholam turns into a Kamatz (such as Chodesh -- Chodashim). In the case of Yo'omad, there is no reason for the Yud to have had a Cholam that turned into a Kamatz Katan, which may be why you assumed that it is a regular Kamatz. However, the Nikud of the Ayin implies that it is a Kamatz Katan, as we wrote above. Perhaps when a Shuruk turns into a Kamatz it also becomes a Kamatz Katan, and the Yud could have had a Shuruk (as in "Yuval" or "Yu'am") that turned into a Kamatz (because of the three-letter Shoresh AMD).

Best wishes,

M. Kornfeld, based on the words of Harav Yakov Blinder

Yedidya Israel comments:

Shalom Rav Kornfeld and others.

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Mordecai Kornfeld wrote:

> In general, whenever a guttural letter is supposed to have a Sheva

> Na, it is given a Chataf+vowel instead (since it is hard to pronounce

> an Alef/Ayin/Ches/Heh with a Sheva Na). The vowel chosen for the

> Chataf is generally the same as the one that immediately precedes it.

> Thus, in the case of Yo'omad Chai, if the Ayin has a Chataf-Kamatz

> Katan, then the Yud must have had a Kamatz Katan. In short, the

> Kamatz under the Yud and the Ayin should be the same type of Kamatz.

This is a Machloket between the Sefaradim and the Ashkenazim. The Sefaradim clearly hold that the Kamatz in the Yod is Kamatz Rachav (regular Kamatz) although other Chatafim follows their Tenu'a Ketana.

The Kamatz in the Yod of "Ya'omad" comes with a Ma'amid (Ga'ya, Meteg) which proves that it is a Kamatz Rachav.

In translations of the bible to Latin (Targum Ha-70 and others) we see that private names (that are translated as-is) like Adam, Avraham, Naomi preserved the Patach-like pronounciation of Kamatz Rachav (a) even when it is followed by a Chataf-Kamatz (like in Naomi), which reflects the speech of the Israeli people that the translator heard in his days.

This is why the Sefaradim pronounce Tzahorayim, Pa'olo, etc when the Ashkenazim and Yemenite says Yzohorayim, Po'olo (but Tzaharayim and Pa'alo are a mistake).

P.s.1. Note that we lost the real pronounciation of the Kamatz Rachav during the long Galut (as we lost the difference between Sin and Samech and Resh Rafe and Dagesh much earlier). So both Sefaradim and Ashkenazim/Yemenite do not pronounce its original pronounciation. The real pronounciation as proven from many Rishonim is something between A and O but closer to A than O !!! we can find nowadays something that can resemble it by the Kamatz said by Iranian and Buchara Jews. I can elaborate on it (in Hebrew) if you want.

P.s.2. the Kamatz-Katan is called by the (majority of) Medakdekim Kamatz-Chatuf, I think that the Ya'vetz is the first to call it Kamatz Katan (please correct me if I'm wrong), we prefer using the term Kamatz Katan so that it won't be mistaken with Chataf-Kamatz.

FYI

Yedidya Israel,

System Manager