Question #2: If so (Rav holds that Chachamim learn from Pesach ha'Heichal), why does an Amaltra (this will be defined) permit [a height over 20]? Pesach ha'Heichal was only 20 tall, even though it had an Amaltra!

(Mishnah): There were five beams of Milas (oak or cedar) wood on top of it.

Suggestion: This discusses the Amaltra over Pesach ha'Ulam! (It was not over Pesach ha'Heichal.)

Rejection: Perhaps the Heichal is just like the Ulam (so whichever it discusses, Pesach ha'Heichal had an Amaltra)!

Summation of question: Rav taught that if the Korah is four [Tefachim] wide [it is Kosher] even if it is weak. If there is an Amaltra, the Korah may be above 20.

Answer (Rav Yosef): Rav did not teach this [about the Amaltra. Therefore, he does not contradict himself]. Rather, it is a Beraisa.

Question: Who taught this Beraisa?

Answer (Abaye): Chama brei d'Rabah bar Avuha taught it.

Question: Even if it is a Beraisa, it is difficult for Rav!

Counter-question: Even without Rav's teaching, this Beraisa contradicts the Beraisa above (end of 2b, in which Chachamim explicitly forbid higher than Pesach ha'Heichal)!

Answer to both questions: Tana'im argue about whether or not Chachamim learn from Pesach ha'Heichal.

Rejection (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): No, if not for Rav's teaching, we would not need to say that Tana'im argue about this;

Chachamim say that Korah [permits a Mavoy] because it is a Heker (indication. It reminds people that there are restrictions on carrying, so they will not come to carry in Reshus ha'Rabim);

Really, they do not learn from Pesach ha'Heichal. They merely give a way to remember the Halachah [that up to 20 Amos is allowed].

Question: We understand this if Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak disagrees with Rabah, but not if he agrees with him!

(Rabah): "Lema'an Yed'u Doroseichem Ki va'Sukos Hoshavti" - Chachamim permit a Sukah up to 20 Amos, for then people will notice the Sechach (material used for a roof).

If he holds like Rabah, Chachamim and R. Yehudah argue in two places about the same thing (whether or not people notice things above 20 Amos. It is unreasonable that the Mishnah would bother teaching the argument twice)!

Answer: The argument must be taught in both places;

Had we taught it only regarding Sukah, one might have thought that only there R. Yehudah permits above 20 Amos. Because one dwells there, he will notice something even above 20. However, people walk through a Mavoy [without looking up]. He would agree that the Korah must be within 20;

Had we taught it only regarding Mavoy, one might have thought that only here Chachamim forbid above 20 Amos, but they would agree that a Sukah may be above 20!

Question: What is an Amaltra?

Answer #1 (Rav Chama): It is the forms of nests;

Answer #2 (Rav Dimi): It is [long] cedar boards.

Rav Dimi says that cedar boards are a Heker [allowing the Mavoy to be above 20]. All the more so he would agree that nests are a Heker;

Rav Chama says that nests are a Heker. He would say that cedar boards are not a Heker.

Question: Why does Rav Dimi say that cedar boards are a Heker?

Answer #1: They are very long.

Rejection: [Even if] a Sukah is very long, Chachamim do not permit above 20!

Answer #2: Because they are very distinguished, they become known [and people notice them].

If part of the Korah or Sechach is above 20 and part is below 20 --

Version #1 (Rabah): Such a Korah is Kosher. Such a Sukah is Pasul.

Question: Presumably, the Korah is Kosher because we say 'trim' (consider it is as if the top of the beam, i.e. what is above 20 was removed. A half-beam within 20 remains.) We should say 'trim' also regarding Sukah!

Answer #1: [The case is,] if we would trim the Sechach, there would be more sun than shade. (This is Pasul. Tosfos - there is not enough Sechach below 20. Alternatively, trimming would cause most of the Sechach below 20 to fall down.)

Objection: If so, surely he likewise discusses a Korah that if we would trim it, it would be [weak, which is Pasul because it can be] blown away by wind!

Answer: We must say that we consider the Korah to be of metal. (It would not blow away.)

Objection: If so, we should likewise consider the Sechach to give more shade than sun [even after it is trimmed]!

Answer #2 (Rava of Parzakya): Only one [or a few] resident(s) dwell in [one] Sukah. Perhaps all the Sechach below 20 will be removed, and no on will know that it is Pasul;

Many people frequent a Mavoy. Surely, if the part of the Korah below 20 was removed, someone would notice!

Answer #3 (Ravina): Chachamim were stringent about Sukah, for it is mid'Oraisa. They were lenient about Korah, for it is mid'Rabanan.

Version #2 (Rav Ada bar Masnah - Rabah): Such a Korah is Pasul. Such a Sukah is Kosher.

Question: Presumably, the Sukah is Kosher because we say 'trim.' We should say 'trim' also regarding a Korah!

Answer #1: [The case is,] if we would trim the Korah, it would be blown away by wind.

Objection: If so, surely he likewise discusses Sechach that if we would trim it, there would be more sun than shade!

Answer: We must say that we consider the Sechach to give more shade than sun [even after it is trimmed]!

Objection: If so, we should likewise consider the Korah to be of metal!

Answer #2 (Rava of Parzakya): Only one person dwells in a Sukah. He alone is responsible for its Kashrus. If Sechach below 20 is removed, he will notice;

Many people frequent a Mavoy. No one person is responsible. Everyone relies on the others. (Perhaps the part of the Korah below 20 will be removed, and no one will notice!)

This is like people say, that a pot of partners is neither hot nor cold. (Everyone relies on others to take care of it.)

Answer #3 (Ravina): Chachamim need not be stringent about Sukah, for it is mid'Oraisa. (People are careful by themselves.) Korah is mid'Rabanan, so Chachamim must be stringent about it to make people careful about it. (end of Version #2)

Question: What was the conclusion?

Answer #1 (Rabah bar Rav Ula): Both of them are Pesulim.

Answer #2 (Rava): Both of them are Kesherim. The Mishnayos disqualify a Sukah or Mavoy with a gap of 20 Amos [from the ground to the bottom of the Sechach or Korah].

Support (for Rava - Rav Papa - Beraisa): If a Mavoy is more than 20 Amos above the ground, it is higher than Pesach ha'Heichal. It must be lowered.

The gap of the Heichal was 20 Amos!

Question (Rav Simi bar Rav Ashi - Beraisa): One puts the Korah lower than 20 Amos.

Answer: It means that he puts it above 20.

Objection: It says below 20!

Answer: It teaches that below [the minimal height] is like above [the maximum]. Just like above 20 Amos is Pasul if the gap is [above] 20, also below 10 Tefachim is Pasul if the gap is [less than] 10.

Version #1 (Abaye citing Rav Nachman): The Amos discussed regarding a Sukah and a Mavoy are five Tefachim. (These are stringencies. This limits their sizes.) The Amah of Kil'ayim is six Tefachim. (This is a stringency. It obligates leaving a larger distance between vines and other crops.)

Question: Which laws of Mavoy does he discuss?

Answer: He discusses the [maximum] height and the [maximum] width of an opening.

Question: [Abaye himself holds that] a Mavoy must be four Amos deep [to be Machshir it]. It is a leniency to measure this with small Amos!

Answer #1: Rav Nachman holds like the opinion that it suffices to be four Tefachim deep.

Answer #2: He requires four Amos [of six Tefachim]. Abaye means that most of the Amos discussed regarding Mavoy are of five Tefachim.

Question: He said that Amos of Sukah are five Tefachim. Which Amos does he discuss?

Answer: He discusses the [maximum] height and Dofen Akumah (If less than four Amos of Pasul Sechach separates the Kosher Sechach from the wall, the Pasul Sechach and wall together are considered like a bent wall reaching to the Kosher Sechach.)

Question: A Sukah must be at least four Amos long. It is a leniency to measure this with small Amos!

(Beraisa - Rebbi): If a Sukah is less than four Amos long and four Amos wide, it is Pasul.

Answer #1: He holds like Chachamim, that it suffices if it holds Rosho v'Rubo (his head and the majority of its body) and his table (seven by seven Tefachim).

Answer #2: He holds like Rebbi. He means that most Amos regarding Sukah are of five Tefachim.

Question: He said that Amos of Kil'ayim are six Tefachim. Which Halachos does he discuss?

Answer: He discusses Karachas ha'Kerem and Mechul ha'Kerem (empty patches in a vineyard, as we explain):

(Mishnah - Beis Shamai): Karachas ha'Kerem is 24 Amos [wide, from one end of the vineyard to the other];

Beis Hillel say, it is 16 Amos.

Beis Shamai say, Mechul ha'Kerem is 16 Amos;

Beis Hillel say, it is 12 Amos.

Karachas ha'Kerem is an empty area in the middle of a vineyard. If it is less than 16 Amos [according to Beis Hillel], one may not plant another crop there;

If it is at least 16 Amos, one may plant another crop there, as long as he leaves Kedai Avodaso (the distance around from the vines needed to tend them, i.e. four Amos) from the vines on each side.

Mechul ha'Kerem is an empty area between a vineyard and a fence. If it is less than 12 Amos, one may not plant another crop there;

If it is at least 12 Amos, one may plant another crop there, as long as he leaves Kedai Avodaso from the vines.

Question: If the vines are less than four Amos apart (this is abnormally close, according to R. Shimon) it is not considered a vineyard. It is a leniency to measure this with large Amos!

(Mishnah - R. Shimon): If the rows of vines are less than four Amos apart, this is not considered a vineyard;

Chachamim say, it is a vineyard. We view the extra vines as if they were uprooted.

Answer #1: Abaye holds like Chachamim. (If four small Amos separate two rows of vines, after 'removing' one row a vineyard does not remain, it is a leniency to measure with large Amos. Nevertheless, this is only inferred. Chachamim did not say this explicitly.)

Answer #2: He holds like R. Shimon. He means that most of the Amos discussed regarding Kil'ayim are of six Tefachim.