Explanation: We ask whether or not he counts by himself.

Perhaps since he was distracted with matters of the Mes, and when they heard, also he heard, he counts with them;

Or, perhaps he counts by himself.

Question: I do not know the law if Gedol ha'Bayis (the eldest of the house) came from nearby [and did not know about the Avelus];

Perhaps he counts with them, since he is [the] primary [mourner].

Reasoning #1: There is a reason why he should count by himself, since he did not know [the start of] Avelus;

Reasoning #2: Or, we can say oppositely. Since he did not go due to the Mes, [this is unlike one who went to the cemetery, and surely] he counts with them.

Explanation #1: When Gedol ha'Bayis came within three days, he counts with them, like we said above, that the first three days he counts with them.

Question: We hold like R. Shimon, that even if he came on the seventh day, he counts with them, like we say below. If so, what is the difference between before or after three days?

Answer (based on Bahag): Even according to R. Shimon, there is a distinction, between before and after three days regarding a far place;

He (Bahag) explained that if he came within three days, he counts with them, even if he came from afar;

If he came after three days from a near place, even within seven days, he counts with them.

Below, he explained that this is even according to R. Shimon.

Explanation #2: The Gemara asks, if Gedol ha'Bayis went to the cemetery, what is the law?

We ask whether the one who came counts with those who remained. Also Rabbeinu Yitzchak explained like this.

Explanation: [Above, R. Chiya bar Aba said] "this is when Gedol ha'Bayis is in the house." Then, one counts with them if he came to them from nearby and found them Avelim;

Even though their Avelus began before his, and he found them one or two days [after they began Avelus], he finishes with them.

According to Rabanan, this is when he came within three days. According to R. Shimon, it is even on the seventh day. Also the Ri explained like this.

This is only when Gedol ha'Bayis is in the house. Then, he (the one who came) is Batel to them;

Explanation (cont.): The Gemara asked as follows. If Gedol ha'Bayis went to the cemetery, i.e. to accompany the Mes to another city, and buried it there, does he count with them, i.e. one who came to the Avelim in the city where the Mes died?

Does he count with them, even though Gedol ha'Bayis is not with them, or not?

This that we require that Gedol ha'Bayis is in the house - does this exclude also this case, even though he (one who came to the Avelim in the city where the Mes died) knew about the Avelus and it applies to him?

Or, perhaps it excludes only when Gedol ha'Bayis is elsewhere, and does not know about this Avelus at all.

However, if he went to the cemetery, since he knew about this Avelus, their Avelus is considered primary, and the guest is Batel to them.

The answer: He (R. Chiya bar Aba) answered that he counts with them. We asked from a Beraisa that says that he counts by himself;

We answered that this is not difficult. He (R. Chiya) discussed when Gedol ha'Bayis came within three days from the cemetery;

Then, he (the Gadol) counts with them, and also the guest counts with them if he came within three days according to Rabanan, or within seven days, according to R. Shimon;

This (the Beraisa) discusses when Gedol ha'Bayis did not come within three days. Their Avelus is not considered primary for one who came from elsewhere to count with them, since Gedol ha'Bayis does not count with them.

This is not only according to Rabanan, that Gedol ha'Bayis does not count with them when he did not come within three days;

Rather, it is even like R. Shimon, who says that even if he came on the seventh day, he counts with them;

This is only regarding someone else, who did not know at the beginning. He is Batel to them, since also Gedol ha'Bayis counts with them,

They are the beginning of the Avelus and its primary [count] more than he, who did not know at the beginning of Avelus;

Distinction: However, one who returns from the cemetery, who was at the beginning of the Avelus, does not count with them when he did not come within three days, whether or not Gedol ha'Bayis is [in the house].

This is like Rav told Bnei Hatzalfoni, who came within three, that one who returns from the cemetery within three counts with them, and one does not came within three days counts by himself. Until here is from [Bahag].

Citation (Yerushalmi): If one came and found an Avel in his house on the second or third day, he finishes with them. On the fourth, he counts by himself;

Citation (cont.): R. Shimon says, even [if he came] on the seventh, he finishes with them.

Citation (cont.): R. Yehoshua ben Levi says, the Halachah follows R. Shimon when the Gadol of the family is in the house, but when the Gadol of the family is not in the house, he counts by himself;

Assertion: According to the Yerushalmi, it seems that it rules like R. Shimon only when the Gadol of the family is in the house, but if the Gadol of the family is not in the house, the Halachah follows Rabanan, that within three days he counts with them, and after three days he counts by himself.

If so, this is good even according to the Halachah, that one who comes within three days counts with them when Gedol ha'Bayis is in the house;

Just like when Gedol ha'Bayis is not [in the house], the Halachah follows Rabanan, similarly for the Gedol ha'Bayis himself, the law is like Rabanan.

Distinction: However, those who go with the Mes, [Avelus begins] from Stimas ha'Golel, whether Gedol ha'Bayis is in the house, or if he went to the cemetery. The custom is like this.

The Yerushalmi's opinion: It disagrees. It teaches that if they transported a Mes, e.g. it will be buried elsewhere, one Beraisa says that those here count from when the Mes leaves, and those there count from Stimas ha'Golel;

Citation (Yerushalmi): Another Beraisa says that both of them count from Stimas ha'Golel;

Citation (cont.): Rav Simon in the name of R. Yehoshua ben Levi says that it all depends on the elder of the family. R. Yakov in the name of R. Yosi says that this is to be stringent.

Citation (cont.): What does it mean to be stringent? If the Gadol of the family was here, those here count from when the Mes leaves, and those there count from Stimas ha'Golel;

Citation (cont.): If the Gadol of the family was there, both of them count from Stimas ha'Golel.

Question: What is the stringency? Sometimes we are lenient to follow Gedol ha'Bayis, e.g. if the Gadol of the family was here, those who came count from when the Mes left the house, which is a leniency!

Answer: It seems that if the Gadol of the family was here, we count immediately, and began mourning with him for his honor once they leave, even not in front of him;

However, the primary Avelus they begin counting from Stimas ha'Golel! (It is a stringency to observe additional days of Avelus from when the Mes left.)

Support: It is brought like this explicitly [in the Yerushalmi]. R. Gamliel Zugah's sister died. Her [other] brother went with her [to bury her];

Citation (Yerushalmi) R. Mani (to the brother): Since there is Gedol ha'Bayis [in the house], once you take leave of him (your brother), remove your sandal (begin Avelus).

The Bavli's opinion: Tosfos ha'Rav says that the Bavli does not distinguish like this.

Implied question: The episode contradicts the Halachah taught!

Answer: It does not. He refrained from baring [the shoulder] due to the Gedol ha'Dor with him. It is not proper to show honor to him (the Mes), lest this cause others to bare.

In Maseches Semachos (9:3), it was taught about this "if he is not proper to bare, one does not bare, even for his father or mother he does not bare. A case occurred..."

Assertion: It seems that the Regel is not Mevatel this (Isur to cut hair until his colleagues rebuke him.

Source - Citation (Yerushalmi): R. Shmuel bar Avdimi counted 30 days [of Avelus] before the Moed. He asked R. Mana;

Citation (cont. - R. Mana): Anything that depends on Shivah or Sheloshim, the Regel interrupts it. However, here it is until he grows long hair, and his colleagues rebuke him and say "leave us."

Support: Also regarding [entering Beis ha']Simchah we find here that [the Isur is] 12 months, and the Regel is not Mevatel it.

Alternative text of Yerushalmi: "... Or his colleagues rebuke him.

Rejection: It seems that this is a mistake. Rather, it is like I wrote, until he grows long hair, and his colleagues rebuke him...

Rashi's opinion: This refers to a meal that friends make for each other.

Support: Only Simchas Meri'us is permitted after 30 days, but Simchas Chasan is forbidden even after 30 days.

Question (Beraisa): For Simchah 30 days [are forbidden], and for Meri'us 30 days. (This shows that they are two matters!)

Strengthening of question: We ask similarly in Bava Metzi'a (2a) "this and this" (i.e. two cases) were taught! Also in Sanhedrin (8a) regarding "a Zimun is with three, and Birkas ha'Mazon is with three." There are more [places where we ask this].

There are places where we do not ask this, e.g. Nedarim 4b regarding "Asur Asur", Chulin 98a regarding "Asuros - Asuros", and Bava Basra 104a regarding "a Beis Kor (the amount of land in which 30 Sa'im of seed are sown) I sell to you, like a Beis Kor...", and other places.

Note: The next words in Tosfos cite Ameimar. Why doesn't Tosfos mention this? It seems that this is why the Rashash says that the next words "ul'Simchas Meri'us Mutar Likanes Le'alter" begin a new Dibur.

Explanation: [Ameimar said that one may go to Simchas Meri'us immediately. We said that Beis ha'Mishteh is permitted after 30 days, for] here we discuss Seudas Chasan.

Citation (Yerushalmi, Maseches Semachos): If it was a Seudas Mitzvah, it is permitted.

Question: I am unsure what it calls a Seudas Mitzvah to permit it for an Avel. Perhaps it is only Seudas Kidush Rosh Chodesh (to publicize which day was fixed to be Rosh Chodesh).

Rabeinu Avraham explained in the name of R. Shimshon that [an Avel] may go to Seudas Bris Milah. It is not considered Simchah.

Source: In Kesuvos 8a, it says that we do not bless "sheha'Simchah bi'Me'ono" because people are distracted [due to the baby's pain] and there is no Simchah.

Question: This was not simple to Rabeinu Avraham that this is less [forbidden] than Simchas Meri'us.

Explanation (Rabeinu Avraham): He may not eat even with the servants. We do not distinguish between the servants' meal and the [main] Seudah itself.

Pesak (Rabeinu Avraham): He may enter without eating, for there is no Simchah without eating and drinking.

Pesak (Tosfos ha'Rav): The Halachah follows Ameimar's version, which is more lenient.

Pesak (Tosfos ha'Rav): The Halachah follows R. Shimon ben Elazar, for in Aveilus, the Halachah [always] follows the lenient opinion.

Rebuttal: Below, we say that Avelus and Keri'ah are separate! (The general rule does not apply to tearing.)