CAN PESACH SHENI BE BROUGHT MI'SAFEK? (cont.)
Answer #1: We cannot do so, on account of Chazah v'Shok (if it is Shelamim, the chest and foreleg must be given to a Kohen to eat).
Question: Each Chaburah could bring a Kohen [to take and eat Chazah v'Shok]!
Answer: It cannot - if the Kohen already fulfilled Pesach [he cannot be Manuy now], perhaps he eats Pesach without Minuy!
If he was not Yotzei Pesach, he cannot be Nimneh with this Chaburah - perhaps it brings Shelamim, and he will not be Yotzei Pesach now!
Objection: One Kohen [who was not Yotzei Pesach] can be Nimneh with all five Chaburos - he eats Chazah v'Shok of each and he is Yotzei, for one of them is a Pesach!
Answer #2: Rather, we cannot stipulate, for this reduces the time to eat Shelamim (it should be permitted for two days and a night - because it is Safek Pesach it may be eaten only for one night, and this might cause it to become Nosar).
Question: They could Makdish a Pesach, and stipulate that (Rashi; Tosfos - automatically,) if they were already Yotzei, it is Mosar Pesach - Mosar Pesach is eaten only one day and a night. (Sefas Emes - still, this is Mema'et the time - Pesach is eaten only at night! Or Chadash - aso Mosar Pesach is eaten only at night.)
Answer: An animal cannot become Mosar Pesach unless it was initially Pesach.
Objection: They should strive to find a Mosar Pesach (e.g. a Pesach that was left over, or excess money Hukdash for Pesach, i.e. if a cheaper Korban was bought)!
Answer #3: Rather, we cannot do so, because Mosar Pesach requires Semichah (one presses on the neck of his Korban), and Pesach does not. (The Tana requires Semichah with all one's strength - he supports himself on [and benefits from] Kodshim, it is permitted only if it is a Mitzvah, so it may not be done mi'Safek.)
Question: This applies to [Chaburos of] men, but not to women - they never do Semichah!
Answer #4: Rather, we cannot do so, because Dam Pesach is put only once on the Mizbe'ach, but Mosar Pesach requires [two Zerikos on opposite corners, the blood goes] on all four sides.
Objection: One Zerikah suffices [b'Di'eved]!
(Mishnah): If one Zerikah was done for any Korban [whose blood should be put on the outer Mizbe'ach], it was Mechaper (the Korban is valid).
Answer #5: Rather, we cannot do so, because Dam Pesach must be poured onto the [Yesod of the] Mizbe'ach, but Mosar Pesach requires Zerikah.
Question: One is Yotzei even if it was poured!
(Beraisa): [Even] if the Torah says that the blood of a Korban should be thrown, if it was poured on the Mizbe'ach, it was Mechaper.
Answer: That is only b'Di'eved, it is not l'Chatchilah. (This also defends Answer #4.)
WHEN MAY ONE BE NIMNEH OR WITHDRAW
(Mishnah): If a man told his children 'I will slaughter the Pesach on behalf of whichever of you comes first to Yerushalayim', once the head and majority of the first child enter, he acquires his portion, and his siblings acquire with him (this will be explained).
(Gemara) Inference: This shows that Yesh Breirah (retroactively, he was Manuy)!
Rejection: R. Yochanan said, the father was only training them to be zealous in Mitzvos (really, the father was Memaneh all his children at the time of slaughter).
Support #1: The Mishnah says, once the first child enters, he acquires his portion, and his siblings acquire through him.
We understand this if they were Menuyim at the time of slaughter;
But if not, they could not acquire shares later!
(Mishnah): One may be Manuy or withdraw until slaughter.
Support #2 (Beraisa): A case occurred, the daughters came to Yerushalayim before the sons - the daughters were zealous, the sons were lowly. (This shows that the whole intent was to make them zealous.)
(Mishnah): People may be Nimnim on a Pesach as long as there is a k'Zayis for each one;
People may be Nimnim or withdraw until slaughter;
R. Shimon says, until Zerikah.
(Gemara) Question: What is the Chidush?
Answer: The Mishnah teaches that even though one Chaburah was already Nimneh, [it may totally withdraw and] another Chaburah may be Nimneh [unlike R. Yehudah (99A)].
(Mishnah): People may be Nimnim or withdraw until slaughter; [R. Shimon says, until Zerikah].
(Abaye): They argue about withdrawing:
The first Tana expounds "Mi'Hyos mi'Seh" - while it has Chiyus (life - 'Hei' and 'Ches' are interchangeable);
R. Shimon expounds "Mi'Hyos mi'Seh" - while it has Havayah (as long as we are engaged in offering it);
But no one allows Minuy after slaughter - "B'Michsas Nefashos...Tachoso" (you will slaughter).
Support (Beraisa): People may be Nimnim or withdraw until slaughter;
R. Shimon permits Minuy until slaughter, and withdrawing until Zerikah.
CAN A CHABURAH TELL A MEMBER TO EAT BY HIMSELF?
(Mishnah): If Reuven was Memaneh Shimon on his share of a Pesach, Reuven's Chaburah may give him his share and tell them to eat elsewhere. (This Tana allows Pesach to be eaten in two Chaburos.)
Version #1 (Gemara) Question: If a member of a Chaburah eats faster [and more] than others, can the Chaburah tell him to take his share and eat elsewhere?
Can he tell them 'You accepted me'?
Or, can they say 'We accepted you to help with the Korban [so there will not be Nosar], but not to eat more than us'?
Answer #1 (Mishnah): If Reuven was Memaneh Shimon on his share of a Pesach, his Chaburah may give him his share and tell them to eat elsewhere.
Suggestion: This is because he and Shimon are like one member of a Chaburah who eats quickly.
If a fast eater can say 'You accepted me', the same should apply here!
Rejection: No - the Chaburah can refuse to eat together because there are extra people;
Even if the two combined eat like one, the Chaburah can say that they do not want an outsider.
Answer #2 (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): If a waiter ate a k'Zayis by the oven, if he is sharp he will eat his fill then;
If his Chaburah wants to do a favor for him, they sit next to him.
Inference: His Chaburah is not obligated to do so - he cannot say, you accepted [to eat with] me!
Rejection: No - they can say 'we accepted you to toil for us, not that we should toil for you'! (They cannot say that they did not accept a fast eater - since they did not investigate, this shows that they are not concerned for this.)
Answer #3 (Beraisa): If a member of a Chaburah eats quickly, the Chaburah can tell him to take his share and eat elsewhere;
Moreover, even five people who made a joint meal at any time can say so [to the fast eater].
Question: Why does it say 'moreover'?
Answer: This is a bigger Chidush:
Not only regarding Pesach, about which they say 'We accepted you to help with the Korban [but not to eat more than us]' - rather, even regarding a joint meal for mere company [he cannot say that they accepted him to eat as much as he wants].
Version #2 - Question: Surely, a Chaburah may expel a fast eater - we did not ask about this (surely, they accepted him only to help with the Korban);
Rather - may a Chaburah split up?
Answer (Beraisa): If a member of a Chaburah eats quickly, the Chaburah can tell him to take his share and eat elsewhere.
This is permitted only because he eats quickly - otherwise it is forbidden.
Rav Papa and Rav Huna brei d'Rav Yehoshua pooled their bread; Rav Papa ate four pieces in the time that Rav Huna ate one. Rav Huna asked to end the partnership; Rav Papa refused - 'you accepted me!'
Rav Huna tried to refute Rav Papa like Answers #1 and #2 above - Rav Papa rejected these proofs like they were rejected above.
Question (Rav Huna - Beraisa): If a member of a Chaburah eats quickly, the Chaburah can tell him to take his share and eat elsewhere.
Answer (Rav Papa): There, they can say 'We accepted you only to help with the Korban.'
Question (Rav Huna - Beraisa): Moreover, even five people who made a joint meal at any time can say so [to the fast eater].
Rav Papa agreed to divide up.
Rav Huna pooled his bread with Ravina; Ravina ate eight pieces in the time that Rav Huna ate one. Rav Huna asked to end the partnership; Rav Huna lamented - 'it is better to join with 100 people like Rav Papa, and not with one like Ravina!'
TRANSFERRING OWNERSHIP OF KORBANOS
(Beraisa #1): If Reuven is Memaneh people on his Pesach or Chagigah (it is eaten by all Benei Chaburah like Pesach), the money he gets for it is Chulin when he gets it [even if the buyers were Makdish it for this purpose];
If one sells his Olah or [any other] Shelamim, it does not take effect, and the money goes to Nedavah [to buy Olos Tzibur], as much as it is.
Question: If it does not take effect, why does the money go to Nedavah?
Answer (Rava): This is a fine [to discourage people from buying].
Question: Why does it say 'as much as it is'?
Answer: Even if the animal was worth only four and he paid five, the fine applies even to the extra one (we do not consider it a mere gift).