(Mishnah): A Chatas of the Tzibur does not die. R. Yehudah says, it dies.

Question: According to R. Yehudah, does one make a lottery from the beginning for death (according to R. Yochanan, who says that the inner goat will be from the first pair)?

Answer #1 (R. Avun): Do we not find like this [according to all Amora'im] according to R. Eliezer? R. Eliezer said that [Temuras Asham and its child] must die! (From the beginning, he makes Temurah for death.)

Note: What is the comparison? Temurah is forbidden. What is the source that l'Chatchilah, the Torah would command to do a lottery that will obligate an animal to die? Zera Avraham (8) says that we ask that presumably, there does not exist Kedushah that from the beginning is only to die.

Answer #2 (R. Mana): What you ask against R. Yehudah is difficult for a Stam Mishnah, which teaches there that Vlad Chatas, Temuras Chatas, and a Chatas whose owner died, it must die. Does a person make Temurah for death from the beginning?!