Question (against Bnei R. Chiya - R. Yanai - Mishnah): Anything Kosher for Shechitah is invalid for Melikah. Anything Kosher for Melikah is invalid for Shechitah.

Question: What do we learn from this?

Suggestion: It teaches about moving the Simanim behind the spine. (It is Kosher for Shechitah, and hence invalid for Melikah. Since the Reisha teaches a Chidush, we can say that the Seifa was included just for parallel structure.)

Answer #1 (to both questions - Rabah bar bar Chanah): No. It teaches about a tooth or fingernail. (Rashi - when attached, these are Kosher for Melikah, and invalid for Shechitah. Others explain that when detached, they are Kosher for Shechitah and invalid for Melikah.)

Rejection: Another Mishnah teaches this (15b or 68a)!

Answer #2 (to both questions - R. Yirmeyah): It excludes Molich and Mevi (moving the knife or fingernail away and returning it), which is Kosher for Shechitah and invalid for Melikah.

This is like the opinion that Molich and Mevi is invalid for Melikah.

Question: According to the opinion that it is Kosher for Melikah, what does the Mishnah teach?

Answer: Bnei R. Chiya must hold that Molich and Mevi is invalid for Melikah.

(Rav Kahana): The Mitzvah of Melikah is to (press the fingernail and) cut straight down into the neck. This is the Mitzvah.

Suggestion (R. Avin): He holds that only this is Kosher, but not Molich and Mevi.

Rejection (R. Yirmeyah): If this is Kosher, all the more so, Molich and Mevi is Kosher!

Question: If so, what does he exclude (through the words 'this is the Mitzvah)?

Answer: He means that even this (cutting through pressing) is the Mitzvah.

(R. Yirmeyah): Whatever is Kosher for Shechitah, correspondingly on the Oref is Kosher for Melikah.

Inference: Whatever is invalid for Shechitah is invalid for Melikah.

Question: What does this teach?

Suggestion: It teaches that Ikur (uprooting the Simanim) disqualifies Melikah.

Rejection: Rami bar Yechezkeil taught that Ikur does not apply to birds!

Answer (Rav Papa): It teaches that Melikah is invalid on the (back of the) head.

Question: This is obvious. The Torah said "Mul (facing the) Oref"!

Answer: Rav Papa refers to the bottom of the back of the head (where it slants in. Alternatively, he cut on an incline until he reached the Simanim).

(Rav Huna): If the first third was Hagramah, and the last two thirds were proper Shechitah, it is invalid. (R. Yirmeyah teaches that the same applies to Melikah.)

(Rav Acha): Rami bar Yechezkel taught that Ikur does not apply to birds. This is like the opinion that the Torah does not require Shechitah of birds;

According to the opinion that Shechitah (of birds) is mid'Oraisa, Ikur applies to birds.

Objection (Rav Ashi): Just the opposite! If Shechitah is mid'Oraisa, we can say that a tradition from Sinai teaches that Ikur does not apply to birds;

Even if a verse teaches that birds must be slaughtered like animals, many laws of Shechitah are only a tradition. Perhaps Ikur was a tradition;

If Chachamim obligated Shechitah, presumably they would equate birds to animals for all laws of Shechitah!

(Rava bar Kisi): Rami bar Yechezkeil taught that Ikur does not apply to birds, i.e. Melikah. Ikur disqualifies Shechitah of birds.

Question: R. Yirmeyah taught that whatever is Kosher for Shechitah, correspondingly on the Oref is Kosher for Melikah. We inferred that whatever is invalid for Shechitah is invalid for Melikah!

Answer: Rava bar Kisi argues with R. Yirmeyah.

(Ze'iri): If the neckbone and most of the flesh were cut, the animal is a Neveilah.

Question #1 (Rav Chisda): A Mishnah already teaches this!

(Mishnah): If Melikah was done with a knife, if someone later eats the bird, he and the clothes he is wearing (when he swallows) become Teme'im (since the bird is Neveilah).

If cutting the neckbone and most of the flesh would not make it a Neveilah, only a Treifah, Melikah with a knife would be like slaughtering a Treifah (since the Simanim are cut after the neckbone and most of the flesh);

This cannot be, for a slaughtered Treifah is not Neveilah!

Answer: We could explain the Mishnah even if cutting the neckbone and most of the flesh makes it only a Treifah. Melikah done with a knife makes a Neveilah, for it is not at all like Shechitah!

Question: Why is it unlike Shechitah?

Answer #1 (Rav Huna): It is Chaladah. (Rashi - the knife is covered up in the neck when it cuts the Simanim; Tosfos - the Simanim are cut in the wrong direction, from back to front.)

Answer #2 (Rava): It is Derasah (he cuts by pressing, and not through Molich and Mevi).

Rav Huna did not answer like Rava, for he holds that Molich and Mevi is Kosher for Melikah;

Rava did not answer like Rav Huna, for he holds that Chaladah is only when the knife is totally hidden, like a CHuLDAH (rodent) in a mousehole.

Question #2 (Rava): According to Ze'iri, what does Melikah accomplish? The bird is already dead before the Simanim are cut!

Counter-question (Abaye): (Even without Ze'iri,) how do you understand Melikah of an Olah, in which both Simanim must be cut?

Cutting one Siman already kills the bird (it suffices for Shechitah, or Melikah of a Chatas). The second Siman is cut on a dead bird!

Answer (Rava): Cutting the second Siman is not part of the Melikah. It is to fulfill the Mitzvah of dividing (the head from the body), which applies after death.

Question (Abaye): If so, also the skin should be cut!

Answer (Rava): The Mitzvah of dividing applies only to what must be cut in Shechitah (i.e., the Simanim).

Question (Abaye): Chachamim say that the Simanim must be totally cut for Melikah, whereas for Shechitah, it suffices to cut the majority of each Siman!

Correction (Rava): Rather, the Mitzvah of dividing applies only to those things that must be cut in Shechitah.