Question: If a Zav and Zavah checked themselves only on days one and eight, and found themselves to be Tehorim, what is the law according to R. Eliezer?

Does he require checking at the beginning and end (of the seven clean days)? Here the beginning was checked, but not the end;

Or, perhaps it suffices to check at the beginning alone?

Answer #1 (Rav): Here also, R. Eliezer is Metaher.

Answer #2 (R. Chanina): He requires the beginning and end. The end is missing. (They must start again and count six more days.)

Question (against Rav - Beraisa): They agree that if a Zav and Zavah checked only on days one and eight, and found themselves to be Tehorim, only day eight counts. (They must count six more days/)

Suggestion: R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua agree about this!

Answer: No, R. Yehoshua and R. Akiva agree about this.

(Rav Sheshes citing R. Yirmeyah bar Aba citing Rav): If a Nidah was Mafrish on the third day, she counts it towards seven clean days.

Objection: A Nidah does not need to count clean days!

Correction: Rather, if a Zavah was Mafrish on the third day (of seeing Dam Zivah), she counts it towards seven clean days.

Question (Rav Sheshes): (The Kusim say this!) Does Rav hold like the Kusim?!

Answer (R. Yirmeyah bar Aba): He means that she may count the days after the third day.

Objection: This is obvious!

Answer: The case is, she did not check again until the seventh (clean) day;

Above, Rav taught that it suffices to check at the beginning alone. Here, he teaches that also the end alone suffices. (Hafrashah is required, but it was on day three of Zivah, which does not count towards the seven clean days.)

One might have thought that the beginning suffices, for then she is Muchzekes Tehorah, but the end does not suffice. Rav teaches that this is not so.

Ravin: R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina challenged Rav from the Beraisa of To'eh (29b, a woman who immerses 95 times because she does not know when she gave birth. The Tana holds that it is a Mitzvah to immerse at the first opportunity.) I do not understand his question!

Question (R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina): We hold that during the first week (after consulting with Beis Din) she immerses each night, but not during the days;

If the beginning is not essential, she should (check each day and) immerse also during the day. Perhaps she was Yoledes b'Zov, and today she finished seven clean days! (Ramban - even though Hafrashah is required, birth is like Hafrashah, for surely she ceased to see Dam Zivah.)

Rather, we must say that because she did not check the first day, she may not immerse.

Answer (Ravin): We established the Beraisa to be like R. Akiva, who requires counting the (seven clean) days "in front of us" (according to Beis Din, i.e. checking each day. Chachamim do not require this. They would require her to immerse also during the days.)

Question: What is the source that Chachamim do not require counting (the first six) days in front of us?

Answer (Beraisa): If a woman says "I saw blood one day" (she does not know when), she immerses nine times. Seven are due to Nidah. (Any of the next seven nights could complete the seven days of Nidah), and two (during the day) due to Zavah (Shomeres Yom k'Neged Yom, today or tomorrow could be the Yom Shimur);

If she says "I saw blood (once) Bein ha'Shemashos," she immerses 11 times.

Question: Why does she immerse 11 times? (Also in the previous clause, we did not know if she saw by day or at night! Even if the sighting counts like two, e.g. it spanned two days, this would not require another immersion.)

Answer (R. Yirmeyah mi'Difti): The case is, she comes in front of us Bein ha'Shemashos. (Tosfos ha'Rosh - she need not say that the sighting was Bein ha'Shemashos);

Eight Tevilos are due to Nidah..(She immerses tonight and seven more nights. If she saw just now, and it was already night, she may not immerse until night eight), three are due to Zavah (right now, lest it is still day and today is Yom Shimur for yesterday), tomorrow (perhaps she saw today) and the third day. (Perhaps she saw now, and it was already night.)

(Continuation of Beraisa): If she says "I did not see," she immerses 15 times.

Objection (Rava): This is absurd, like the laws in Galchi (a place)!

There, one who owns an ox must watch all the oxen (of the city) for one day. One who does not own an ox must guard for two days.

An orphan was there. They gave him the cattle to guard. He slaughtered them, and announced that whoever owned cattle receives one skin, and those who did not own receive two skins each.

The residents: That is unreasonable!

The orphan: It is just like your law of guarding. One who did not own is obligated more. Likewise he will receive more!

Here also, if one who saw immerses only nine or 11 times, it is unreasonable that one who did not see immerses 15 times!

Correction: Rather, if she says, "I do not know how many times I saw, nor whether it was during the days of Nidah or of Zivah," she immerses 15 times:

If she says this during the day, she immerses seven times due to Nidah (like above (b)) and eight in case she was a (full) Zavah. (Today or any of the next seven days could complete seven clean days. Tevilah today and tomorrow are included, in case she is Shomeres Yom k'Neged Yom);

If she tells us at night, she immerses eight times for Nidah (like b:4) and seven for Zavah. (This will be corrected.)

Objection: She should need to immerse eight times due to Zavah (just like when she told us during the day! Perhaps today completes seven clean days. If she saw tonight, her seven clean days will end seven days after today!)

Correction: Rather, in either case, she immerses seven times for Nidah and eight for Zavah.

Question: If she tells us at night, she must immerse eight times for Nidah!

Answer: The Tana counts eight for Zavah, for this is required in any case. He counts only seven for Nidah, for sometimes (i.e. if she tells us during the day) only seven are needed.

Summation of answer (b): If she must count in front of us, she would not immerse during the day (for Zavah, for she was not counting)! She would start counting today, and immerse after seven days!

Conclusion: Chachamim do not require counting the days.

Rejection (Rav Acha brei d'Rav Yosef): Because of objection (b:6) we amended the Beraisa. If we amend it differently, the proof goes away!

Rather, if she says "I counted, but I do not know how many days I counted, nor whether it was during the days of Nidah or of Zivah," she immerses 15 times.

Objection: "I counted" implies that she counted at least one day. If so, she must count at most six more. She need not immerse on day eight!

Correction: Rather, she says "I do not know whether or not I counted, or how many days I counted..."

(Mishnah): If any of the following died, the body has Tum'as Masa until the flesh rots: a Zav, Zavah, Nidah, Yoledes or Metzora;

A dead Nochri does not have Tum'as Masa.

Beis Shamai says, every dead woman is considered a Nidah. (Tosfos - this is even for Even Misma; see (g). Rashi - we immerse clothes that she wore shortly before death);

Beis Hillel says, only one who died while a Nidah is considered a Nidah after death.

(Gemara) Question: To which Tum'as Masa does the Mishnah refer?

It cannot mean regular Tum'as Masa. Every Mes has that!

Answer: It refers to Even Misma (a rock too heavy to be moved, or that is supported on pegs. Normal Tum'as Masa does not apply to it. It applies only to someone Tamei due to his own body, i.e. those listed in our Mishnah) -- "v'Hesayis Even Chadah v'Sumas Al Pum Guba... ."

Question: Why does Tum'as Even Misma apply to these people after death?

Answer (Rav): This is a decree, lest they faint (and people will think that they are dead).

(Beraisa - R. Eliezer): They are Teme'im until the stomach bursts.

(Mishnah): A dead Nochri (does not have Tum'as Masa).

(Beraisa - Rebbi): A dead Nochri does not have Tum'as Masa because he has no Tum'ah mid'Oraisa while alive, only mid'Rabanan.

(Beraisa): People of Alexandria asked R. Yehoshua 12 things -- three matters of Chochmah (Halachah), three of Agadata (non-Halachic teachings), three silly matters (Maharsha - questions about the creation based on misunderstanding), and three of Derech Eretz (proper conduct).

Question #1 (of Chochmah): If a Zav, Zavah, Nidah, Yoledes or Metzora died, for how long does the body have Tum'as Masa?

Answer (R. Yehoshua): It is until the flesh rots.

Question #2: Is the daughter of Machzir Gerushaso (one who remarried his divorcee after she married someone else) forbidden to a Kohen?

Perhaps a Kal v'Chomer forbids her. Even though the Isur of a widow to a Kohen Gadol is Eino Shavah b'Kol (does not apply to all people), the son is tainted. (He is a Chalal, i.e. empty of Kedushas Kehunah. A daughter is a Chalalah, and forbidden to Kehunah.) Machzir Gerushaso is Shavah b'Kol (applies to all people). All the more so the child should be tainted!

Or, perhaps we reject the Kal v'Chomer. A widow (who marries a Kohen Gadol) herself becomes blemished, but the divorcee does not!

Answer (R. Yehoshua): "Hi To'evah" teaches that she (the divorcee who remarried her first husband) is an abomination, but her children are not.