(a)When Rebbi Yehudah (thinking that, according to Rebbi Yossi, the Kohen performing the Avodah would be visible from outside the Azarah) queried Rebbi Yossi, why did the Kashya not boomerang on himself, since, if the Mizbe'ach was three Amos tall, and the Kela'im five, the Kohen would be visible from the outside too?
(b)Seeing as according to Rebbi Yossi, Shlomoh did not burn the Korbanos on the floor of the Azarah, what are the ramifications of the Pasuk in Melachim's statement that Shlomoh sanctified the Chatzer?
(c)And according to Rebbi Yehudah, what does the Pasuk mean when it states that the Mizbe'ach ha'Nechoshes was too small?
(d)When it comes to learning the measurements of Moshe's Mizbe'ach, why did ...
1. ... Rebbi Yehudah prefer to learn it from Shlomoh's Mizbe'ach?
2. ... Rebbi Yossi prefer to learn it from the Mizbe'ach ha'Ketores?
1)
(a)When Rebbi Yehudah (thinking that, according to Rebbi Yossi, the Kohen performing the Avodah would be visible from outside the Azarah) queried Rebbi Yossi, the Kashya did not boomerang on himself, from the fact that, if the Mizbe'ach was three Amos tall, and the Kela'im five, the Kohen would be visible from the outside too - because even though the top of the Kohen would be visible, the area where the Avodah was performed would not.
(b)Seeing as according to Rebbi Yossi, Shlomoh did not burn the Korbanos on the floor of the Azarah, the ramifications of the Pasuk's statement that Shlomoh sanctified the Chatzer - are reflected on the Mizbe'ach ha'Olah, whose Kedushah was synonymous with the Azarah to which it was attached.
(c)And according to Rebbi Yehudah, when the Pasuk states that the Mizbe'ach ha'Nechoshes was too small - it refers to the Mizbe'ach of Shlomoh which replaced the Mizbe'ach ha'Nechoshes, as we explained above.
(d)When it comes to learning the measurements of Moshe's Mizbe'ach ...
1. ... Rebbi Yehudah preferred to learn the measurements of Moshe's Mizbe'ach (the length and the breadth) from Shlomoh's Mizbe'ach - which is Chutz from Chutz (rather than from the Mizbe'ach ha'Zahav - which is Chutz from P'nim).
2. ... Rebbi Yossi prefers to learn it from the Mizbe'ach ha'Ketores - K'li from Kli (rather than K'li from Binyan [since, Shlomoh's Mizbe'ach was considered attached to the ground]).
2)
(a)What does Rava mean when he says Modeh Rebbi Yehudah be'Damim?
(b)And he bases this on a statement of Rebbi Yehudah. What did Rebbi Yehudah say in a Beraisa about the spilt blood on the floor of the Azarah on Erev Pesach?
(c)How do we try to refute Rava's proof from there that the blood must be sprinkled on the Mizbe'ach (even though the Korban itself can be burned on the floor of the Azarah)?
(d)How do we counter Rava's answer that in that case, all the Kohen would need to do would be to pour the blood back on the floor? Why does he need to pour it on to the Mizbe'ach?
2)
(a)When Rava says Modeh Rebbi Yehudah be'Damim, he means that - Rebbi Yehudah concedes that the blood must be sprinkled on the Mizbe'ach, and not on the floor of the Azarah (see Tosfos DH 'Modeh').
(b)And he bases this on a statement of Rebbi Yehudah, who said in a Beraisa that - a Kohen should fill a bowl with the spilt blood on the floor of the Azarah on Erev Pesach and pour it on the Mizbe'ach (as we already discussed in the third Perek).
(c)We try to refute Rava's proof from there that the blood must be sprinkled on the Mizbe'ach (even though the Korban itself can be burned on the floor of the Azarah) - by ascribing the need for this to the fact that the blood spilled inadvertently, whereas really, it needs to be poured deliberately.
(d)We counter Rava's answer that in that case, all the Kohen would need to do would be to pour the blood back on the floor by suggesting that maybe Rebbi Yehudah requires the blood to be poured on to the Mizbe'ach - in order to fulfill the Mitzvah in an ideal way (but that if Bedi'eved, he poured it back on to the floor, he would be Yotzei).
3)
(a)What does Rebbi Elazar learn from ...
1. ... the Pasuk (in Shemini, in connection with the eighth day of the Milu'im) "Ve'ichluhah Matzos Eitzel ha'Mizbe'ach"?
2. ... "Kodesh" "Kodesh" from there?
(b)And what did he say about eating Kodshim Kalim in Yerushalayim as long as the Mizbe'ach is chipped?
3)
(a)Rebbi Elazar learns from ...
1. ... the Pasuk (in Shemini, in connection with the eighth day of the Milu'im) "Ve'ichluhah Matzos Eitzel ha'Mizbe'ach" that - (seeing as there is no Mitzvah to eat the Sheyarei Minchah beside the Mizbe'ach, the Pasuk must be coming to teach us) the Kohanim may only eat it as long as the Mizbe'ach is complete.
2. ... the Gezeirah Shavah "Kodesh" "Kodesh" from there that - the same applies to all Kodshei Kodshim.
(b)And he extended this ruing - to a Yisrael eating Kodshim Kalim in Yerushalayim, from one of three statements cited by Rebbi Yossi in the name of three elders (as we will now see).
60b----------------------------------------60b
4)
(a)Rebbi Yishmael thought that it might be permitted to bring Ma'aser Sheini to Yerushalayim nowadays, and eat it there. On what grounds would it be necessary to separate Ma'aser nowadays after the Churban Beis-ha'Mikdash?
(b)What did he learn from B'chor (with a Binyan Av)?
(c)On what grounds did he subsequently refute that? Why can one not learn Ma'aser Sheini from B'chor?
(d)So he tries to learn it from Bikurim. What makes Bikurim better than B'chor is this regard?
(e)What Pircha did he ask on this Limud too? Why can one not learn Ma'aser from them?
4)
(a)Rebbi Yishmael thought that it might be permitted to bring Ma'aser Sheini to Yerushalayim nowadays, and eat it there. It would be necessary to separate Ma'aser nowadays - because he holds that the Kedushah of Eretz Yisrael did not become Bateil with the Churban.
(b)He learned from B'chor (with a Binyan Av) however, that - just as B'chor requires the Mizbe'ach, so too, does Ma'aser.
(c)But he refuted that, since one cannot learn Ma'aser Sheini from B'chor - which requires Matan Damim ve'Emurim on the Mizbe'ach (which Ma'aser does not).
(d)So he tried to learn from Bikurim - which do not require Matan Damim ve'Emurim on the Mizbe'ach.
(e)He queries that Limud too however - on the grounds that Bikurim require placing beside the Mizbe'ach (which Ma'aser does not).
5)
(a)So what did Rebbi Yishmael ultimately learn from the Pasuk in Re'ei "Va'haveisem Shamah ... ve'es Ma'asroseichem ... u'Vechoros Bekarchem ... "?
(b)Why did he not even attempt to learn Ma'aser from a Mah ha'Tzad from B'chor and Bikurim?
5)
(a)So Rebbi Yishmael ultimately learned it from the Pasuk "Va'haveisem Shamah ... ve'es Ma'asroseichem ... u'Vechoros Bekarchem ... " - where Ma'aser is compared to B'chor with a Hekesh (and we have a principle Ein Mashivin al ha'Hekesh).
(b)He did not even attempt to learn Ma'aser from a Mah ha'Tzad from B'chor and Bikurim - since one would immediately refute such a Limud with the Pircha that whereas they both require the Mizbe'ach in one way or another, Ma'aser Sheini does not.
6)
(a)What problem do we have with Rebbi Yishmael's Limud of B'chor to Ma'aser, assuming that he holds Kedushah Rishonah Kidshah le'Sha'atah ...
1. ... ve'Kidshah le'Asid Lavo? What sort of Kedushah are we talking about?
2. ... ve'Lo Kidshah le'Asid Lavo'?
(b)In the latter case, how would we justify bringing a B'chor after the Churban? How would it be possible?
(c)If on the other hand, Rebbi Yishmael holds Lo Kidshah le'Asid Lavo, why might one be able to eat either Ma'aser or B'chor even in Yerushalayim?
(d)What exactly is then the She'eilah?
6)
(a)The problem with Rebbi Yishmael's Limud of B'chor to Ma'aser, assuming that he holds Kedushah Rishonah Kidshah le'Sha'atah ...
1. ... ve'Kidshah le'Asid Lavo (meaning the Kedushah of the Beis-Hamikdash) is - why may one not then bring even a B'chor nowadays?
2. ... ve'Lo Kidshah le'Asid Lavo is - what then makes B'chor more obvious than Ma'aser?
(b)In the latter case, we would justify bringing a B'chor after the Churban - in a case where the blood was sprinkled and the Emurim sacrificed before the Churban, and the Kohen then wanted to eat the Basar in Yerushalayim.
(c)If on the other hand, Rebbi Yishmael holds Lo Kidshah le'Asid Lavo, one might still be able to eat either Ma'aser or B'chor even in Yerushalayim - on the assumption that Kodshim Kalim do not require the Mizbe'ach ...
(d)... and the She'eilah is - whether Yerushalayim is called Lifnei Hash-m even when there is no Mizbe'ach, or not.
7)
(a)Ravina adopts the latter side of the She'eilah. What does Rebbi Yishmael then learn from the Pasuk in Korach "ve'es Damam Tizrok ... u'Vesaram Yih'yeh lach"?
(b)What problem do we then have with learning Basar from Dam and Ma'aser from B'chor?
(c)How do we refute the answer that Ma'aser Dagan is considered Chulin?
(d)So how do we ultimately answer the Kashya?
7)
(a)Ravina adopts the latter side of the She'eilah, and Rebbi Yishmael then learns from the Pasuk "ve'es Damam Tizrok ... u'Vesaram Yih'yeh lach" that - one may only eat the Basar when the blood can be sprinkled on the Mizbe'ach.
(b)The problem with learning Basar from Dam and Ma'aser from B'chor is that - it contravenes the principle Ein Lemeidin Hekesh min ha'Hekesh be'Kodshim (as we have already learned).
(c)We refute the answer that Ma'aser Dagan is considered Chulin - by referring to those who go after the Melamed (and not the Lameid), and B'chor is Kodshim.
(d)We ultimately answer the Kashya - that Dam and Basar are considered one entity (and the Hekesh is merely a Giluy Milsa [an indication], and not a real Limud).
8)
(a)When Ravin arrived in Eretz Yisrael and told Rebbi Yirmiyah Abaye's Chidush invalidating Kodshim Kalim when the Mizbe'ach becomes chipped and the proof from Rebbi Yossi's statement, what did Rebbi Yirmiyah comment?
(b)Why did he say that?
(c)The Beraisa he cites discusses the moving of the camp in the desert. What does the Tana say about ...
1. ... Kodshei Kodshim?
2. ... Zavin and Metzora'im?
(d)How do we know that the traveling Ohel Mo'ed did not lose its status?
(e)Then why are the Kodshei Kodshim Pasul?
8)
(a)When Ravin arrived in Eretz Yisrael and told Rebbi Yirmiyah Abaye's Chidush invalidating Kodshim Kalim when the Mizbe'ach becomes chipped and the proof from Rebbi Yossi's statement, the latter commented - by referring to those Babylonian fools, who make dark (unenlightened) statements, because they live in a dark country (since Bavel is very low, as Rashi explains in No'ach), and surrounded by mountains.
(b)He said that - because they ought to have known the Beraisa that he is about to cite.
(c)In the Beraisa he cites which discusses the moving of the camp in the desert, the Tana rules that ...
1. ... Kodshei Kodshim - become Pasul, and ...
2. ... Zavin and Metzora'im - must leave their respective camps (Metzora'im, even Machaneh Yisrael, and Zavin, only Machaneh Leviyah).
(d)We know that the traveling Ohel Mo'ed did not lose its status - because the Machaneh Leviyah, which the Zav is obligated to leave, only has the status of Machneh Leviyah on account of the Ohel Mo'ed, which is still considered intact.
(e)Consequently, the Kodshei Kodshim must be Pasul - because the Mizbe'ach is not standing in its place.
9)
(a)A second Beraisa adds that Kodshim can be eaten in two places. Which two places?
(b)How do the two Beraisos appear to clash?
(c)How does Rebbi Yirmiyah reconcile the Beraisos? What is he trying to prove from there?
9)
(a)A second Beraisa adds that Kodshim can be eaten in two places - one, in their regular location when Yisrael is still encamped (Kodshei Kodshim in the Azarah and Kodshim Kalim in Machaneh Yisrael), the other, when Yisrael are traveling.
(b)The two Beraisos appear to clash - since the first Beraisa forbids Kodshim to be eaten whilst Machaneh Yisrael are traveling, whereas the second Beraisa permits it.
(c)Rebbi Yirmiyah reconciles them - by establishing the first Beraisa by Kodshei Kodshim, and the second, by Kodshim Kalim, a proof that Kodshim Kalim may be eaten even when the Mizbe'ach is not standing (a Kashya on Abaye).
