(Mishnah): From when do we mention Gevurah of rain? R. Eliezer says, it is from the first Yom Tov of Sukos. R. Yehoshua says, it is from the last Yom Tov.

R. Yehoshua: Since rain is not a Siman of Brachah during Sukos, why should one mention it?

R. Eliezer: He says only Mashiv ha'Ru'ach u'Morid ha'Gashem in its time. (He does not request rain).

R. Yehoshua: If so, he should always mention it!

(Gemara): R. Eliezer's reason is that the four Minim grow through water. Therefore, they come as advocates of water (much rain).

Alternatively, at a time when the slave serves the master as much as he needs to (after the 10 days of Teshuvah), he demands his payment from him.

R. Yehoshua: From when the slave serves the master as much as he needs to, and his master is pleased with him, he demands his income from him!

Alternatively, a slave demands his wage only close to the time when he needs his wage.

(Beraisa - R. Eliezer): [We mention] from the time when we take the Lulav.

R. Yehoshua says, it is from when we put it down [cease to take it].

Question: According to this Beraisa, R. Eliezer's opinion earlier (in our Mishnah, from the first day) is like his opinion later (in our Beraisa). However, R. Yehoshua's opinion changed! There he says from the last day of Yom Tov, and here he says from when we put down [the Lulav, i.e. the seventh day]!

Answer (R. Mana): The entire day is Kosher for Lulav. ("From when we put it down'' refers to the last Yom Tov, when there is no more Mitzvah.)

Question: One should mention [rain] from the night! (Why does R. Eliezer say from when we take the Lulav, i.e. Shacharis?)

Answer: Not everyone is there (in the Beis ha'Keneses. We do not want that some mention, i.e. those in the Beis ha'Keneses, and others do not.)

Question: One should mention from Shacharis (everyone is in the Beis ha'Keneses)!

Answer: [If so, one who was not in the Beis ha'Keneses last night] will think that they mentioned at night and he will do so [next year. However, now that] he sees that they do not mention in the first Tefilah [of the day, i.e. Shacharis], and they mention in the last (Musaf), he knows that they did not mention the night before.

R. Chiyah bar Maryei (to R. Mana): So your father, R. Yonah, asked [and answered].

(R. Chagai citing R. Pedas): It is forbidden for an individual to mention, until the Shali'ach Tzibur mentions.

Question (R. Simon citing R. Yehoshua ben Levi): Does it depend on the Shali'ach Tzibur?!

Question (R. Mana, to R. Chagai): Do [R. Pedas and R. Yehoshua ben Levi] argue?

Answer (R. Chagai): No. What you say "does it depend on the Shali'ach Tzibur?!'' No - rather,] if an individual wants to mention it, he mentions (even if he did not hear from the Shali'ach Tzibur) refers to Tal (it is always optional to mention it). What you say that an individual may not mention until the Shali'ach Tzibur mentions, refers to rain. (We explained this like PNEI MOSHE.)

If the Tzibur stood [to pray Musaf, one who enter the Beis ha'Keneses to pray with them, he mentions rain]. It is as if [he heard] the Shali'ach Tzibur mention.