1)

Why does it say both "Mispar" and "Mifkad"?

1.

'Rashi': This is like "v'Chol Pekudeichem l'Chol Misparchem" (Bamidbar 14:29).

2.

Rashi (Shmuel II, 24:9 from Pesikta Rabsi 11 #1): Yo'av made two census documents ? one large and one small. I will show to him the small, and if he is angry, I will show to him the big 1 .

3.

Pesikta Rabsi 11 #2: When Yo'av went to count, he sent to someone with five children 'go hide, and count as many as you want to count.' Yo'av wrote what the man said 2 . Torah ha'Temimah ? this implies that even an imprecise count can bring Divine anger, and that even writing (without saying) the count is forbidden, like Teshuvas Kesav Sofer YD 106 citing his father (the Chasam Sofer).

4.

Radak (Shmuel II, 24:9): The matter is doubled, to strengthen it. Both "Mispar" and "Mifkad" are Samuch [to "ha'Am"], like "Mivchar v'Tuv 3 ha'Levanon" (Yechezkel 31:16) and "Naharei Nachalei Devash v'Chem'ah" (Iyov 20:17).

5.

Malbim (Shmuel II, 24:9): "Mifkad" is the Kolel (gives only the total number), and "Mispar" is detailed.


1

If the Isur is due to Ayin ha'Ra, a bigger count is worse. If it is due to inhibiting increase via hidden miracles, a smaller count is worse (refer to 24:1:3:3)! (PF)

2

Mifkad implies lacking ? "v'Lo Nifkad Mimenu Ish" (Bamidbar 31:49). (PF)

3

How can we bring a support that two words are Samuch from there, where the latter Samuch has the prefix Vov? (PF)

2)

Rashi (in Shmuel) writes that Yo'av made two documents. He intended to show the small, and if David is angry, he will show to him the big. How will Yo'av explain why he initially misled David?

1.

Malbim (Shmuel II, 24:9, citing Midrash Shmuel 30): "Mifkad" is the Kolel, and "Mispar" is detailed. If David would be satisfied with the former, there is no sin in this. 1 David was not satisfied, and demanded also Mispar, which explains the Mifkad.

2.

Perhaps initially he will show only the count of the adults. If David is angry, he will show the count including the children. Refer to 24:1:3:2. (PF)


1

Why does it matter whether or not David demands the latter? Yo'av already made and wrote the detailed calculation! (PF)

3)

It says here that there were 1,100,000 in Yisrael. In Shmuel II, 24:9 it says 800,000!

1.

'Rashi': Because there was anger at Yisrael, the entire number was not written in Shmuel, and Yo'av did not count all the Shevatim (27:24). This Sefer is for David's honor, so it lists all those counted, to show how big his army was 1 ! It says here "Chol Yisrael", but not there.

2.

Rashi (in Shmuel from Pesikta Rabsi 11): It says here that Levi and Binyamin were not counted with the rest 2 . Yo'av could say that Levi are different (they are counted from one month), and Binyamin, it is enough that they were decreased Esmol 3 via Pilegesh b'Giv'ah 4 .

3.

'Rashi' and Radak, from 32 Midos of R. Eliezer Bno Shel R. Yosi ha'Gelili, Midah 15: There, there was no need to count the men who normally served David, 24,000 for each of 12 months (Divrei ha'Yamim I, 27:2-15), 288,000 in all. There were also 12,000 5 Nesi'im of Yisrael 6 [excluded there].


1

If so, why is Yehudah's number smaller here (refer to 21:5:4:1-3)? (PF)

2

Radak (in Shmuel): This is difficult. If the census is bigger here due to Levi and Binyan, it should say in Shmuel that they were omitted! Also, it does not explain the difference in the counts of Yehudah (refer to 24:9:5:1-3)! Malbim (in Shmuel) ? here, Ezra explained that the count in Sefer Shmuel excluded Levi and Binyamin; Ezra gave the total number.

3

Esmol (literally yesterday) implies recently, like the opinion that Pilegesh b'Giv'ah was at the end of the Shoftim, shortly before Sha'ul's reign; refer to Shoftim 17:1:1:1-4 and the notes there. (PF)

4

Only 600 men remained from Binyamin. Some say that Pilegesh b'Giv'ah was at the end of the Shoftim, shortly before Sha'ul's reign (refer to Shoftim 17:1:1:1-4 and the notes there). Since they are few, so David need not be adamant if they are not included. However, this answer holds that there were 300,000 in Levi and Binyamin together, and Levi was the smallest Shevet! Also, at most 77 years later (15 years into Asa's reign), he had 280,000 soldiers from Binyamin (Divrei ha'Yamim II 14:7, 2:15:10,11. Perhaps the 280,000 included men from other tribes who had come to live in Binyamin). If Yo'av meant that they should not be decreased further via the census, would David agree? He would not command a census if he thought that it will diminish any Shevet! Perhaps Yo'av meant that Binyamin is exceptionally prone to be decreased. (PF)

5

Surely there were 1,000 from each Shevet. I do not know the source for this. (PF)

6

Radak: Also this does not explain the difference in the counts of Yehudah (refer to 21:5:4:1-3)! (Do not say that here it excludes those Bnei Yehudah who normally served David. All 288,000 were deducted from the count of Yisrael! It is hard to say that the 288,000 were from Shevatim other than Yehudah, especially since at least three of the 12 leaders [of 24,000 men] listed below were from Peretz or Zerach, i.e. from Yehudah)! (PF)

4)

Why does it say here that there were 470,000 in Yehudah, and in Shmuel II, 24:9 it says 500,000?

1.

Radak: Perhaps 30,000 of Yehudah died in the plague; in all, 70,000 died in the plague (verse 15). A large amount died from Yehudah, because the plague was due to David (of Yehudah. Radak (Shmuel II, 24:9 - or because most of the sinners were from Yehudah).

2.

Malbim (Shmuel II, 24:9): Many people from Levi and Binyamin lived in Yehudah, like is known. Yehudah 1 gave nine cities to Bnei Aharon. There were 30,000 such people; Yo'av counted them among Yehudah, for he did not count Levi and Binyamin by themselves (refer to 24:9:4:1). Here, these 30,000 are among the 300,000 of Levi and Binyamin that were included in the number of Yisrael.

3.

Here it counts 470,000 wielding swords from Yehudah. Perhaps there were 30,000 who fight without swords, e.g. archers. (PF)


1

Shoftim 21:9-16 says that the nine cities were from Yehudah and Shimon together! Malbim (21:13) says that most of them were from Yehudah.

5)

Did David count only men proper to fight?

1.

Ramban (Bamidbar 1:2), Malbim (Shmuel II, 24:2): No. It says below (27:23-24) that he did not count from 20 and above. I.e. he counted even children. Our verse counts 1,100,000 men wielding swords, i.e. they were healthy to fight. Only the sick were excluded.

2.

The simple meaning of the verses implies 'yes'. In Shmuel, it counts 800,000 men wielding swords from Yisrael, and 500,000 from Yehudah; here it counts 470,000 wielding swords from Yehudah. Clearly, there were more than 30,000 children in Yehudah! Rather, there were 30,000 proper to fight without swords, e.g. archers. Other Meforshim 1 explain below (27:23-24) that David counted only from 20 and above, unlike the simple meaning (although they explain that it refers to counting men to serve David. Only Ramban says that it is the same census discussed here and in Shmuel II, Perek 24. - PF)


1

Other than Ramban and Malbim. Malbim (Shmuel II, 24:2) explains, like the others, that below 27:23-24 refers to counting men to serve David. I.e. David wanted to count also below 20. It says that Yo'av began, i.e. to count also children, but did not finish; he finished counting only the adults. (PF)

Sefer: Perek: Pasuk:

KIH Logo
D.A.F. Home Page
Sponsorships & DonationsReaders' FeedbackMailing ListsTalmud ArchivesAsk the KollelDafyomi WeblinksDafyomi CalendarOther Yomi calendars